The Tierney Conundrum

[ArabFC]

A bigger dilemma even than McTominay.

Should Tierney play? For many fans he'll be the first name on the team sheet.

And Clarke found a way to squeeze both him and Robertson into the team - successfully for the most part.

But when Tierney isn't available we have literally nobody that can come close to replicating what he offers. And that's a big problem.

With Tierney in we have a huge threat down the left - when he's not we have Cooper or McKenna sitting back and Robertson for whatever reason inhibited too.

The only solution I can see is to play 2 systems - a back four when Tierney is not available so we can squeeze in another attacking player and a back 5 when he is.

That or drop Robertson when Tierney is available and we all know that's not gonna happen - nor should it imho.

I know 2 systems is not ideal for an international team, but we always end up changing system when chasing the game anyway.

Overall I'm in favour of keeping Clarke - I think he's done a good job generally - but its not great that after 35 games in charge he's still trying to figure out how to cope with and without Tierney and McTominay.

[/rantover]

 

[git-intae-thum]

We should be flexible enough to play both in a 532 or 442.

In a 442 Robertson could play left midfield. Going forward and crossing is the best bit of his game at Liverpool.

Tierney overlapping

or even reverse their positions when and if appropriate......just to confuse the opposition.

[Donathan]

11 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

We should be flexible enough to play both in a 532 or 442.

In a 442 Robertson could play left midfield. Going forward and crossing is the best bit of his game at Liverpool.

Tierney overlapping

or even reverse their positions when and if appropriate......just to confuse the opposition.

 

Yeah there’s no conundrum here. A fit Tierney is the first name on the sheet. 

[2426255]

14 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

In a 442 Robertson could play left midfield.

Can't play 442, we will get overloaded in midfield. 

[wastecoatwilly]

Tierney is a tank down the left side just get out his way.

[Binos]

There's no conundrum 

We fall apart without him

[ArtemisClydeFrog]

Yeah, there's absolutely no conundrum involving his selection. He's the one top class player we have, it's just a pity he's not especially reliable. 

Either way, Tierney starts when fit regardless of formation. It would never happen, and I'm inclined to agree that it shouldn't given Robertson's quality in comparison to his teammates, but if a back four is considered the way forward then Robertson should find himself on the bench. 

[ArabFC]

1 hour ago, Binos said:

There's no conundrum 

We fall apart without him

Indeed.

My point being that when he's not available - which is not rare - we continue to utilise a system put in place to get him in the team that doesn't work without him..

 

[Glennie]

1 hour ago, ArtemisClydeFrog said:

Yeah, there's absolutely no conundrum involving his selection. He's the one top class player we have, it's just a pity he's not especially reliable. 

Either way, Tierney starts when fit regardless of formation. It would never happen, and I'm inclined to agree that it shouldn't given Robertson's quality in comparison to his teammates, but if a back four is considered the way forward then Robertson should find himself on the bench. 

steady on

a squad of international players should be able to play any number of systems. if he's fit then fine play 3 at the back. if he's not then fine, play four at the back

Clarke has fucked up if he's got them so rigid that they cant adapt between game and on the fly

[wastecoatwilly]

45 minutes ago, Glennie said:

Clarke has fucked up if he's got them so rigid that they cant adapt between game and on the fly

Yip, the players all play the same systems at their clubs.

[Binos]

2 hours ago, ArabFC said:

Indeed.

My point being that when he's not available - which is not rare - we continue to utilise a system put in place to get him in the team that doesn't work without him..

 

That's obvious to everyone but the manager 

[Moomintroll]

4 hours ago, Binos said:

There's no conundrum 

We fall apart without him

Aye, every time we are without KT, it just reminds you what a pler he is. If he can just sort out his injury problems, he will be going further than Arsenal.

[Binos]

14 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

Aye, every time we are without KT, it just reminds you what a pler he is. If he can just sort out his injury problems, he will be going further than Arsenal.

We must also never give him the captains armband 

Although he may buck the trend 

[gannonball]

7 hours ago, git-intae-thum said:

We should be flexible enough to play both in a 532 or 442.

In a 442 Robertson could play left midfield. Going forward and crossing is the best bit of his game at Liverpool.

Tierney overlapping

or even reverse their positions when and if appropriate......just to confuse the opposition.

I don’t think Robertson really has the trickery to be a winger tbh. He’s all about creating his own space off the ball and being the overlap. 

[Binos]

Just now, gannonball said:

I don’t think Robertson really has the trickery to be a winger tbh. He’s all about creating his own space off the ball and being the overlap. 

The 541 is fine when both fit

When not revert to 451

Simply 

[2426255]

14 hours ago, Binos said:

The 541 is fine when both fit

When not revert to 451

Simply 

Do folk not remember us being scudded off Russians and Belgium home and away when we played a back four (due to Tierney being injured)? The teams current problems are not rooted in team shape and tactics.

Edited June 13, 2022 by 2426255

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Do folk not remember us being scudded off Russians and Belgium home and away when we played a back four (due to Tierney being injured)? The teams current problems are not rooted in team shape and tactics.

The point being made is that playing 5atb doesn't benefit us when we don't have Tierney, because Hanley and Cooper cannot pass the ball.  We therefore lose a place in midfield, surrender territory and struggle to attack.

If we played Belgium and Russia with a fit team and 4atb, I doubt our scores would be similar.  Remember who played in those games.

5atb works brilliantly for us when McTominay/Hendry/Tierney/Souttar can break the lines, and make passes from defence straight into attack.  Tierney is miles ahead of the others, but the others are capable.  Cooper and Hanley are not capable of it.  I'm not sure McKenna is either.

With 4atb, you gain a player in midfield, and you don't then need your defence to build play.  

The worst of all worlds is when (and this happened at times against Armenia) is that none of your defenders are trusted to build play, and your number 6 (McGregor) takes the ball off the CB's toes.  It's a complete waste of space, and numbers.  You then have 6 players effectively in defence, because neither full back has confidence to play higher up the pitch, and we have no out ball.

This didn't occur last year, as Gilmour and McGregor received the ball at halfway, or inside the opponent's half.  If the opposition pressed, those two (with the help of Tierney) passed around them.

Hanley and Cooper don't offer any help, Gilmour has been unfit or unavailable, and Hickey was either unprepared or unconfident to help.  McGinn, Adams, and Dykes were too far up the pitch and so there were no triangles to play our way out of trouble.

The Armenia game was effectively irrelevant, but we still had serious problems breaking them down.  Christie, Robertson, and Ralston were the only players either capable of, or trying to beat a man.  Though the second half was pedestrian, McTominay was able to play higher and made a big difference by both moving the ball quicker, and beating a man centrally.  Something we have barely achieved in 270 minutes of football.

Our heads have gone down since Ukraine, confidence is blown up, and then against ROI we neither had the belief, the energy, the motivation, or the physicality to deal with it.  Everything was setup to fail and it did.

Edited June 13, 2022 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[2426255]

33 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The point being made is that playing 5atb doesn't benefit us when we don't have Tierney, because Hanley and Cooper cannot pass the ball.  We therefore lose a place in midfield, surrender territory and struggle to attack.

If we played Belgium and Russia with a fit team and 4atb, I doubt our scores would be similar.  Remember who played in those games.

5atb works brilliantly for us when McTominay/Hendry/Tierney/Souttar can break the lines, and make passes from defence straight into attack.  Tierney is miles ahead of the others, but the others are capable.  Cooper and Hanley are not capable of it.  I'm not sure McKenna is either.

With 4atb, you gain a player in midfield, and you don't then need your defence to build play.  

The worst of all worlds is when (and this happened at times against Armenia) is that none of your defenders are trusted to build play, and your number 6 (McGregor) takes the ball off the CB's toes.  It's a complete waste of space, and numbers.  You then have 6 players effectively in defence, because neither full back has confidence to play higher up the pitch, and we have no out ball.

This didn't occur last year, as Gilmour and McGregor received the ball at halfway, or inside the opponent's half.  If the opposition pressed, those two (with the help of Tierney) passed around them.

Hanley and Cooper don't offer any help, Gilmour has been unfit or unavailable, and Hickey was either unprepared or unconfident to help.  McGinn, Adams, and Dykes were too far up the pitch and so there were no triangles to play our way out of trouble.

The Armenia game was effectively irrelevant, but we still had serious problems breaking them down.  Christie, Robertson, and Ralston were the only players either capable of, or trying to beat a man.  Though the second half was pedestrian, McTominay was able to play higher and made a big difference by both moving the ball quicker, and beating a man centrally.  Something we have barely achieved in 270 minutes of football.

Our heads have gone down since Ukraine, confidence is blown up, and then against ROI we neither had the belief, the energy, the motivation, or the physicality to deal with it.  Everything was setup to fail and it did.

I understand your point of view, unfortunately I don't have time to reply to this at the moment - but I will later.

[2426255]

On 13/06/2022 at 12:51, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The point being made is that playing 5atb doesn't benefit us when we don't have Tierney, because Hanley and Cooper cannot pass the ball.  We therefore lose a place in midfield, surrender territory and struggle to attack.

If we played Belgium and Russia with a fit team and 4atb, I doubt our scores would be similar.  Remember who played in those games.

5atb works brilliantly for us when McTominay/Hendry/Tierney/Souttar can break the lines, and make passes from defence straight into attack.  Tierney is miles ahead of the others, but the others are capable.  Cooper and Hanley are not capable of it.  I'm not sure McKenna is either.

With 4atb, you gain a player in midfield, and you don't then need your defence to build play.  

The worst of all worlds is when (and this happened at times against Armenia) is that none of your defenders are trusted to build play, and your number 6 (McGregor) takes the ball off the CB's toes.  It's a complete waste of space, and numbers.  You then have 6 players effectively in defence, because neither full back has confidence to play higher up the pitch, and we have no out ball.

This didn't occur last year, as Gilmour and McGregor received the ball at halfway, or inside the opponent's half.  If the opposition pressed, those two (with the help of Tierney) passed around them.

Hanley and Cooper don't offer any help, Gilmour has been unfit or unavailable, and Hickey was either unprepared or unconfident to help.  McGinn, Adams, and Dykes were too far up the pitch and so there were no triangles to play our way out of trouble.

The Armenia game was effectively irrelevant, but we still had serious problems breaking them down.  Christie, Robertson, and Ralston were the only players either capable of, or trying to beat a man.  Though the second half was pedestrian, McTominay was able to play higher and made a big difference by both moving the ball quicker, and beating a man centrally.  Something we have barely achieved in 270 minutes of football.

Our heads have gone down since Ukraine, confidence is blown up, and then against ROI we neither had the belief, the energy, the motivation, or the physicality to deal with it.  Everything was setup to fail and it did.

My essential point is that formations aren't particularly important in modern day football given that many teams play or at least attempt to play fluidly. Scotland, RoI and Ukraine all fall into that category where you will not really see a consistent shape throughout the game. The shape will adapt in relation to where the play is, where the ball is and where a players teammates are.

Gareth Southgate said word to this effect recently, I'll try to find the quote. Scotland along with Ukraine and the RoI are clearly attempting to implement the ideas of positional play theory.

Edited June 15, 2022 by 2426255

[ropy]

Is the conundrum his injury record.  Is he unfortunate or does his playing style do him no favours?