A reality check: Our standing in Europe

[Satoshi]

16 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I think your point gets lost when you refer to anyone with an alternative opinion as a seething mess.

Its not a cut and dried line, there's people who think were under performing, over performing or were doing as good as we should.

Personally I agree with @John Lambies Doos

What we really need is a route and branch clear out from the top. Were not a modern forward thinking outfit. Were run by a bunch of old guys picking their mates as managers and hoping for the best.

The performance schools seem to be working which is positive. But you can't help thinking the coaching structure is still just an old school jobs for the boys mentality.

Money is obviously an issue, do we have the money to be employing the best youth coaches with proven track records? No probably not.

Do we have the money to entice a small team capable or restructuring us and making sure the coachs we have are doing the right things? Yes probably we do.

The problem as I see it is that same as every other attempt at modernising or systems and thinking the results would be ignored. As they would go against the jobs for th boys we have at the moment.

Just look at the highest level of our youth systems, the u21 and u19 manager positions. On any criteria used to judge their work they fail, yet its a job for life.

Have a read of Walter smiths take on what changes were made after the first review. The think tank. Ill save some reading, nothing was done.

 

 

I don't think anyone with a different opinion is a seething mess, some may be but most won't be. Most are just unaware of Scotland's rich footballing history and only listen to the media consistently downbeat assessment on anything to do with Scottish football. It should be in bright lights our excellent domestic game, fantastic attendances and amazing football history - Hampden has far more claim to be the home of football than Wembley which original incarnation was built 50 years after Hampden started hosting international football. But sadly it isn't which is why it's so important to share.

Our player development recently has been pretty good, but could of course always be better. Our biggest issue, relative to Croatia or Uruguay, is that our domestic game is too strong and the club's too powerful. We should be letting out FA develop players more than clubs. Russia, turkey, northern Africa all underperform due to a strong domestic league so it's not unique to us.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, Satoshi said:

I think the extremes of the reaction are greater in Scotland, the negativity is pretty extreme at times.

And it's a well known and commented on part of our national psyche, it's what Scottish cultural cringe is a thing.

Don't know what you mean of similar standing, but Scotland have qualified for more world cups than pretty much all of those teams (except Sweden and Switzerland and counting Czech Republic since split from Czechoslovakia - if you count Czech Republic and Czechoslovakia combined we are tied on 9).

Iceland have qualified for two tournaments in their entire history.

If you offered me the chance to qualify for two tournaments, and reach the second round, Vs qualifying for 9 like any sensible person I would chose the latter.

Scotland have been in the last 8 of the euros and the last 16 of the world cup 5 times.

If you want an example of extreme negativity, thinking we are worse than Wales, Northern Ireland or Iceland is an excellent example of this.

Norway have a far worse qualification record than us and haven't qualified for anything since 2000.

We have qualified for more world cups than Norway, Ireland, northern ireland and Iceland combined.

Now you're claiming reactions in both directions are more extreme here.  That's rather a switch from claiming we're "just down".

I know pointing to our negative psyche is 'a thing'.  I just think it's rather flimsy.  In fact, ironically enough, I'd see it as an example of the self serving 'wha's like us?' belief in an exceptionalism that scarcely exists.  

As for the rest of it, yes we know we have a huge history in football as a very very early adopter.  That isn't irrelevant, but it's what means that we have a better record of qualifying than many countries who didn't develop professional games until well after WW2.

Our 21st century record is poor though, and it's hardly surprising that this is what people focus on right now.

[Satoshi]

42 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Now you're claiming reactions in both directions are more extreme here.  That's rather a switch from claiming we're "just down".

I know pointing to our negative psyche is 'a thing'.  I just think it's rather flimsy.  In fact, ironically enough, I'd see it as an example of the self serving 'wha's like us?' belief in an exceptionalism that scarcely exists.  

As for the rest of it, yes we know we have a huge history in football as a very very early adopter.  That isn't irrelevant, but it's what means that we have a better record of qualifying than many countries who didn't develop professional games until well after WW2.

Our 21st century record is poor though, and it's hardly surprising that this is what people focus on right now.

Then I misinterpreted your post, but yeah in general we are a very down nation. Even the exceptionalism is just unrealistic expectations to talk us down more, plenty of ignorant Scottish fans think we 'should' beat countries like Austria and Poland which is patently nonsense. And then when it doesn't transpire they insist on how terrible we are.

Our 21st century is pretty poor but is clearly improving so a lot to be positive about.

But it's bizarre to me people don't think Scotland is a negative place, how many national anthems have a central theme of 'we can be a country again - really!?'

There's a reason the stereotype is so prominent, I've lived in many different countries around the world and never seen anything comparable.

I'm very much an outlier in being an optimist, but very happy to be so, can't imagine being a Scottish fan who obsesses over how bad we are. What a sad life.

 

[Bing.McCrosby]

Just now, Satoshi said:

Then I misinterpreted your post, but yeah in general we are a very down nation. Even the exceptionalism is just unrealistic expectations to talk us down more, plenty of ignorant Scottish fans think we 'should' beat countries like Austria and Poland which is patently nonsense. And then when it doesn't transpire they insist on how terrible we are.

Our 21st century is pretty poor but is clearly improving so a lot to be positive about.

But it's bizarre to me people don't think Scotland is a negative place, how many national anthems have a central theme of 'we can be a country again - really!?'

There's a reason the stereotype is so prominent, I've lived in many different countries around the world and never seen anything comparable.

I'm very much an outlier in being an optimist, but very happy to be so, can't imagine being a Scottish fan who obsesses over how bad we are. What a sad life.

 

Tbh I think it depends on what Austria and Poland teams are like in comparison to ours at a particular time. Im not sure there is plenty of fans who think we should be beating teams like this, or Ukraine tbh. But some people would expect and I dont think its and outrageous expectation, that we should be able to give them a good game. Just like Ireland did recently.

The problem for me with the Ukraine game wasn't the defeat it was the manner of the defeat and the terrible style of football we played. How our teams have performed in the last 50 or 100 years isn't that relevant. Neither is the mindset attributed to me because I'm Scottish.

The Irish, Welsh, English .... just about anybody wouldn't have been delighted to watch their teams play like that. Would they be displaying the typical Irish, Welsh, English... reactions?

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by BingMcCrosby

[TheScarf]

Give me one qualification in our history and getting to, say, a semi final, over 9 qualifications and a measly 1-2 point haul which sees us bottom of the group any day.

[Satoshi]

On 17/06/2022 at 17:51, TheScarf said:

Give me one qualification in our history and getting to, say, a semi final, over 9 qualifications and a measly 1-2 point haul which sees us bottom of the group any day.

Fair enough, don't imagine many people would agree with you on that. Scotland have already been in the last 8 of the euros, probably wasn't as good as our 9 wc qualifications.

We also didn't get out of the group stage due to goal difference several times, hardly embarrassing ourselves.

But self haters gonna hate, it's just how it is.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

What is all this utter fuckin pish about historically this or that? anything that any team did, good or bad, that was  12 or more years ago is completely irrelevant. the players will have either all retired or the few that are left will be at completely different stages in their career. 

We have a relatively good group of players right now. relative to both our previous teams and to other nations our size. we are comfortably a 2nd tier european nation. ( pot 2 in other words)  most of our best players are 25 or younger, theres more to come from this squad

We played shite against Ukraine and made them look brilliant, we lost all our pre christmas momentum

Ukraine are a decent side but they're no a brilliant side and we are good enough to beat them

[Satoshi]

So if 11 years ago = relevant and can be discussed but 12 years ago = completely irrelevant?

Seems incredibly arbitrary but at least you have put a figure on it.

For me, all history is relevant. And when discussing the current squad the last 2-3 matches of most relevance.

[Bing.McCrosby]

5 hours ago, Satoshi said:

So if 11 years ago = relevant and can be discussed but 12 years ago = completely irrelevant?

Seems incredibly arbitrary but at least you have put a figure on it.

For me, all history is relevant. And when discussing the current squad the last 2-3 matches of most relevance.

I think the point hes quite clearly making is we should judge the current squad and team for what it is now. In comparison to the teams were playing now. Which is entirely logical.

 

[Satoshi]

6 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I think the point hes quite clearly making is we should judge the current squad and team for what it is now. In comparison to the teams were playing now. Which is entirely logical.

 

Well, now and strictly only the last 11 years.

But yeah look at Scotlands recent results vs. the recent results of other teams? Sure, why not. Ireland beat us recently but our recent results are still better than theirs.

[Bing.McCrosby]

19 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Well, now and strictly only the last 11 years.

But yeah look at Scotlands recent results vs. the recent results of other teams? Sure, why not. Ireland beat us recently but our recent results are still better than theirs.

Can you quote me saying the last 12 years?

Recently Ireland absolutely pumped us, so I'd go with that as an indicator about us in comparison to them. You judge how you want.

[Ken Deans]

Is no use having an opinion that quality players in our squad are being misused along with ineptitude and stubbornness from the Management . Potential is there but keep expecting indiscipline and mediocrity that's what we get

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

Can you quote me saying the last 12 years?

Recently Ireland absolutely pumped us, so I'd go with that as an indicator about us in comparison to them. You judge how you want.

Well no, because you didn't say it, the other poster did. And my reply was to your post trying to summarise his post.

I don't know why you bothered to be honest, it contributed nothing.

And yeah fine, will agree to disagree on Ireland being a better team than us then.

[Bing.McCrosby]

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

Well no, because you didn't say it, the other poster did. And my reply was to your post trying to summarise his post.

I don't know why you bothered to be honest, it contributed nothing.

And yeah fine, will agree to disagree on Ireland being a better team than us then.

Indeed, im perfectly capable of reading and summarising others posts thanks. The gist of his post was, judge the team on what it is now.

Your opinions on my contributions dont interest me either.

We can agree to disagree, but saying as they just absolutely horsed us its utterly bizarre you would disagree.

They also recently drew away with ukraine, and had a narrow defeat at home. While ukraine came over here and again absolutely embarrassed us.

You should stand at Glasgow Airport with your history books, put the shits right up teams when they come here.

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by BingMcCrosby

[TheScarf]

How teams did in comparison to Scotland in the 60s, 70s and 80s means absolutely fuck all to football today.  Give me Wales record in the present over Scotland's before most of the posters on this forum were alive any day of the week.

If people are insistent on putting a timelime on things, lets go with the end of Scotland's regular qualification for tournaments - 1998, or the turn of the century.  Yep, I'll take Wales' record thanks, and South Ireland's.

[effeffsee_the2nd]

20 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Well, now and strictly only the last 11 years.

But yeah look at Scotlands recent results vs. the recent results of other teams? Sure, why not. Ireland beat us recently but our recent results are still better than theirs.

12 years is not arbitrary, never said it was, i think most reasonably minded people would agree that it's a decent length of time in which most international  squads will have completely refreshed their playing squad and any players who are still playing international football after 12 years won't be the same ie 35 year old midfielder is not equal to 23 year old mid, similarly 18 year old keeper not equal to 30 year old 

arguing the toss over where exactly we should draw the line is just being a dick, i'm sure you're more than capable of getting the point i'm making and are choosing to argue the toss

 

TL/DR

retired players don't affect current squads chances

[Satoshi]

6 hours ago, TheScarf said:

How teams did in comparison to Scotland in the 60s, 70s and 80s means absolutely f**k all to football today.  Give me Wales record in the present over Scotland's before most of the posters on this forum were alive any day of the week.

If people are insistent on putting a timelime on things, lets go with the end of Scotland's regular qualification for tournaments - 1998, or the turn of the century.  Yep, I'll take Wales' record thanks, and South Ireland's.

So history doesn't matter and if it did it would only be the period of history where Scotland do worst?

Gotcha, at least you're consistent!

4 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

12 years is not arbitrary, never said it was, i think most reasonably minded people would agree that it's a decent length of time in which most international  squads will have completely refreshed their playing squad and any players who are still playing international football after 12 years won't be the same ie 35 year old midfielder is not equal to 23 year old mid, similarly 18 year old keeper not equal to 30 year old 

arguing the toss over where exactly we should draw the line is just being a dick, i'm sure you're more than capable of getting the point i'm making and are choosing to argue the toss

 

TL/DR

retired players don't affect current squads chances

It is arbitrary, and most completely reasonable people would not agree with it because you've just made it up.

This is all a needlessly complex anyway, it's much simpler to say that all history matters and if you want to take current squad the last few matches matter.

Forcing some arbitrary date period (almost always one where Scotland does badly) serves no purpose other than to convince people we are worse than we are.

The levels of self hatred in Scotland fans is deserving of a scientific study, you would never see behaviour like this in other parts of the world.

People can of course decide to only consider their lifetime, or 5 years, or whatever random year they chose to assign, just as I'm perfectly comfortable considering all history to matter. If it is the latter Scotland has a very proud footballing history, if you are choosing the former to a time period Scotland (relatively) struggle in then it says more about you than the national team for me.

[Bing.McCrosby]

4 hours ago, Satoshi said:

So history doesn't matter and if it did it would only be the period of history where Scotland do worst?

Gotcha, at least you're consistent!

It is arbitrary, and most completely reasonable people would not agree with it because you've just made it up.

This is all a needlessly complex anyway, it's much simpler to say that all history matters and if you want to take current squad the last few matches matter.

Forcing some arbitrary date period (almost always one where Scotland does badly) serves no purpose other than to convince people we are worse than we are.

The levels of self hatred in Scotland fans is deserving of a scientific study, you would never see behaviour like this in other parts of the world.

People can of course decide to only consider their lifetime, or 5 years, or whatever random year they chose to assign, just as I'm perfectly comfortable considering all history to matter. If it is the latter Scotland has a very proud footballing history, if you are choosing the former to a time period Scotland (relatively) struggle in then it says more about you than the national team for me.

I find it bizzare you use the term self hatred for wanting the team you support to do better. What is hateful about that? Never mind self hatred, you need to log off for a bit.

"You would never see behaviour like this in other parts of the world"

Behaviour like wanting their team to to well. Wanting them to do better, really? What a thing to say. Im not even going to dissect it, its just so ridiculous and shows such immaturity.

I apologise in advance Satoshi, I try not to insult people on here and very very rarely do.

But you truly are an absolute fan dan of the highest order, I mean an absolute specimen of top shef idiot.

[Satoshi]

3 hours ago, BingMcCrosby said:

I find it bizzare you use the term self hatred for wanting the team you support to do better. What is hateful about that? Never mind self hatred, you need to log off for a bit.

"You would never see behaviour like this in other parts of the world"

Behaviour like wanting their team to to well. Wanting them to do better, really? What a thing to say. Im not even going to dissect it, its just so ridiculous and shows such immaturity.

I apologise in advance Satoshi, I try not to insult people on here and very very rarely do.

But you truly are an absolute fan dan of the highest order, I mean an absolute specimen of top shef idiot.

I think everyone wants the team they support to do better, not everyone insists the team is worse than someone else considering a 7 year timeline to be more important than 150 years of being much better than that team.

I have lived and worked all over the world, including in some famous footballing cultures. I have never seen such obsessive negativity that a minority of Scotland fans employ. And it's not just an observation I have made, miserable Scottish people is a cliche for a reason.

Go and see the world, it doesn't hate itself as much as you think it does. You would never seen fans of any other country, let's say Germany, creating an arbitrary timeline to show that Austria are better than them. It's bizarre behaviour.

 

 

 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

12 hours ago, Satoshi said:

So history doesn't matter and if it did it would only be the period of history where Scotland do worst?

Gotcha, at least you're consistent!

It is arbitrary, and most completely reasonable people would not agree with it because you've just made it up.

This is all a needlessly complex anyway, it's much simpler to say that all history matters and if you want to take current squad the last few matches matter.

Forcing some arbitrary date period (almost always one where Scotland does badly) serves no purpose other than to convince people we are worse than we are.

The levels of self hatred in Scotland fans is deserving of a scientific study, you would never see behaviour like this in other parts of the world.

People can of course decide to only consider their lifetime, or 5 years, or whatever random year they chose to assign, just as I'm perfectly comfortable considering all history to matter. If it is the latter Scotland has a very proud footballing history, if you are choosing the former to a time period Scotland (relatively) struggle in then it says more about you than the national team for me.

look, thinking that we should be beating say, Bulgaria for example, because historically we could beat them for fun, if they were to have a team full of European cup winners, would be complete nonsense