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Ireland v scotland


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3 hours ago, Lex said:

 


What chances did we have? The two McGinn shots from outside the box and…?

 

To be fair, those were great chances, and he had more time with both to take them further in. Two free shots from the edge of the box should have seen at least one goal at that level. We had a couple of dangerous balls into the box as well. We really should have scored at least once, but our finishing was atrocious (as it was against Armenia). 

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1 hour ago, Lex said:

 


None of them are clear cut chances in the ‘should have scored’ category. Half chances at best.
The best chances of the game that weren’t taken were the Duffy header at the back post which was well saved and the miraculous goal line clearance from Hanley. Gordon also made a decent save down low before they scored that was harder work than anything we made their keeper do and they hit the bar from a corner when we got a very soft foul.
I didn’t feel we were at all unfortunate. No dodgy refereeing decisions to blame, no hard luck stories, no what ifs.
Just humped.

 

So majority of those chances were after the first 20/30 I mentioned, yes we were shit but my point was they definitely weren’t much better than us if anything. 

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As a Dons fan who supports the national team, chastening 3-0 defeats when you’re favourites to win a match is nothing new.

For me it all started in the LC final replay at Dens Park in 1979/80. We’d beaten the Old Firm, our nemesis Morton and were all over United in the Hampden match on the Saturday.
United had not played a top flight side til us in the final, but still horsed us 3-0 that night.

There have been others - often against United or Motherwell in particular at club level.

At national team level - well having attended France 98, I give you the Morocco game.

When I heard all the stats and chat beforehand about how bad Ireland were, then there was a certain inevitability about this.

Both the Dons and Scotland are traditionally great opponents for teams a bit down on their luck that badly need a pick me up.

The team seemed to swan around with an arrogance of those that in the majority of positions had players coming from a higher level/ quality of club.
Ireland simply turned it into a ‘British’ style game - for want of a better phrase - and roundly pumped us.

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1 hour ago, tarapoa said:

As a Dons fan who supports the national team, chastening 3-0 defeats when you’re favourites to win a match is nothing new.

For me it all started in the LC final replay at Dens Park in 1979/80. We’d beaten the Old Firm, our nemesis Morton and were all over United in the Hampden match on the Saturday.
United had not played a top flight side til us in the final, but still horsed us 3-0 that night.

There have been others - often against United or Motherwell in particular at club level.

At national team level - well having attended France 98, I give you the Morocco game.

When I heard all the stats and chat beforehand about how bad Ireland were, then there was a certain inevitability about this.

Both the Dons and Scotland are traditionally great opponents for teams a bit down on their luck that badly need a pick me up.

The team seemed to swan around with an arrogance of those that in the majority of positions had players coming from a higher level/ quality of club.
Ireland simply turned it into a ‘British’ style game - for want of a better phrase - and roundly pumped us.

Know how you feel in that respect, seen enough chastening defeats as a Clyde and Scotland fan to know that you never expect anything in this game.

In a similar story to yours, I remember playing Dumbarton season 1995-96, a side who had been on a dreadful run of form, without a win in something like 18 (I think, happy to be corrected) and although we had been not brilliant either were still expected to win reasonably comfortably.  Dumbarton won and that was the straw that broke the camel's back as Alex Smith was swiftly punted.  There was also some awful defeats in the Gardner Spiers rein (6-1 at home to Caley Thistle a particularly low mark).  Yesterday still felt just as chastening, as there had been real signs of late that we had something to look forward to as Scotland fans, and this all too familiar regression back, apart from feeling inevitable, is infuriating in equal measure

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8 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

It’s so hard to work out exactly what to do when we’ve been so abject. Ireland looked well-motivated and ran tirelessly, but difficult to tell how good you were relative to how bad we were. 

If you can play every game with that energy and discipline, then your results will improve. However, don’t ever let Duffy play the ball out from the back. Against an in-form McGinn or a better team, and you’d have handed away the game.

My only point would be, don’t read too much into it until you play someone that’s not us. That’s the fourth time we’ve not turned up in a big game in the last year. Anyone can turn us over when we do that.

 

Absolutely re Duffy - my voice hurts today from screaming at him everytime he did that!

Fair enough re the point of yous not turning up, but for us it's still huge because we have not been able to go out and beat a team comprehensively for as long as I've seen us. As a domestic league fan I always hugely respected Kenny, I think we would be crazy to let him go for the sake of short term bad results when he can achieve wins against decent opposition playing relatively well - something we've not been capable of in my lifetime.

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7 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

It’s small margins. We qualified for the Euros which is great. We then played fairly badly against three sides higher ranked than us.

We then took 7 points off teams higher ranked than us in ECQ and were the highest placed 2nd placed team into the playoffs.

We then played badly in a single game against a team who are both higher ranked and better than us. Our players are clearly tired. The Ukrainians, for obvious reasons, were not. 

It happens. It happened to Italy twice recently, and to the Netherlands repeatedly.

We’ve then collapsed in Ireland, and whilst it’s hugely concerning it also effectively means nothing. We’re seeing poor performances and results across Europe right now, and though we might have a mentality problem, we’re not alone.

Objectively, our results have been better than any other time in 25 years. We’ve under-performed, but that’s not failure - yet.

Get Tuesday done with and let’s forget about this month.

 

Have they though? I'd say the qualifying campaigns for Euro 2004 - except the play off second leg obviously - and (especially) 2008 - except Georgia away obviously - were better results and performances.  This time around we capitalised on the new one-legged playoff by squeezing through on pens, and played really well against an already qualified Denmark. Austria away was a decent result, but it wasn't exactly up alongside beating France home and away.

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7 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

But we didn't need to be one of the Top 13 to qualify for the Play-Offs. We had in our group:

Denmark 11th

Austria 34th

Scotland 39th

Israel 76th

Faroes 124th

Moldova 180th
 

...Denmark won at a canter as expected only losing (to us) in their last game having won their previous nine.

We only really had to top Austria (although we've had problems with Israel in the past), and Austria and Scotland are pretty similar in leagues, population etc etc, so that could go either way.

Austria are the 18th ranked UEFA team in the FIFA rankings.

We were then humped by the 27th ranked nation (or 16th in Europe) at home in a one-legged semi-final.

Clarke guided us to second. Well done but a 'success'? I think, at very best, he achieved the minimum acceptable performance. 

As I said previously though, even if we had got past Ukraine, I think last night was a taste of what would've happened if we played in Cardiff.

I read a lot of nonsense before the Ukraine match that we had the best squad of the three nations. The rankings suggested we were the weakest and so it proved.

Scotland and Austria aren't similar in terms of league (ours is much better) or population (they have over 9 million people, we have just over 5.4m).

I don't think finishing ahead of Austria and Israel is a minimum acceptable performance. Austria is a much bigger nation with a magnificent footballing history, we beat them away and finished ahead of them. That is absolutely a good performance and a successful qualifying group.

And if you think Wales have a better squad than Scotland, that's your perogrative, but the respective club success of the players makes it quite clear that isn't the case. They are overperforming their abilities, in the matches vs Ukraine and Ireland we underperformed ours.

It happens sometimes.

The WC qualifying group was an undoubted success, and I very much hope we can make the playoffs again. For the Euros I certainly hope we will qualify, but it's also clear some big footballing nations will miss out (like Serbia did last time).

6 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Aye, but I can't see them cycling back to part-time status as they were when we were dominate against them.

However, it's a good point, if the Danish DBU can develop from an amateur farce to 11th in the world and, in 1992, Euro champions then surely there is hope for the SFA.

Maybe then Scottish fans can dare to have a bit more ambition than celebrating a play-off place in the World Cup qualifiers as a success.

It's not ambition, it's being realistic. Playoff is absolutely a success everyone would have taken at the start of qualifying.

It's a classic Scottish mentality to talk ourselves down incessantly, yet insist on a very ambitious goal, then use not reaching it as an opportunity to talk us down once more.

I don't how such people function in real life, are they always so negative? 

It's linked with an arrogance / ignorance about Scotlands place in footballing hierachy, as brilliant and overperforming as we were for over a century, other nations (like Denmark) have caught up. We aren't doing as badly as fallen giants like Austria and Hungary (or nations of similar size like Norway and Finland), we are just a pretty average northern European nation of 5 million people with an outstanding domestic league. Our current team is really good and should be performing better, getting to the last Euros and the WC playoff is a clear indication we are performing better. Still turning out stinker of results, like 2 of the last 3, but that's probbaly just another stage in our development. 

9 hours ago, Binos said:

We had a gift of a group draw and a gift of a playoffs draw

We should have qualified 

But you agree that reaching the playoffs for our WC qualifying group was a success? And would be a success were we to do it again next time? 

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Not been on the thread since the game, so not sure of the chat so far, but my tuppence is:

  • Ireland looked well up for it and pressed us, doubled teamed us and just generally played like they wanted to win it.
  • We need as a real forward with presence up front, who can hold onto the ball. Adams plays the channels and is always looking to get on the end of through balls. We need someone who can take the ball under pressure and allow midfielder/wingers to get up and into the game.
  • I feel Robertson needs Tierney, when they play together on the left side, over lapping, under cutting, covering each others runs etc, we can be really effective.
  • McTominay and Gilmour look out of confidence, and struggled to make any impact.
  • I think some see our CBs as one of our strongest areas, but I think they are all bombscares, all liable to give away possession, lose concentration and lose their attacker. Hopefully, Souttar get's up to fitness, and if we're playing a 3/5 at the back, then him plus maybe McKenna/Hanley/Hendry could form a more solid basis.

Clarke, deserves his chance to get us to play out of this for this campaign, but we looked devoid of ideas, and since the Denmark game, our play and results has taken a marked regression.

Edited by lau03143
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As a Dons fan who supports the national team, chastening 3-0 defeats when you’re favourites to win a match is nothing new.

For me it all started in the LC final replay at Dens Park in 1979/80. We’d beaten the Old Firm, our nemesis Morton and were all over United in the Hampden match on the Saturday.
United had not played a top flight side til us in the final, but still horsed us 3-0 that night.



A great example, however the Dons then went on to win the league later that season and began the greatest period of our history cumulating in the 83 win against Real Madrid.
So hopefully Clarke can learn lessons like Fergie did and we now go on to not just qualify but win the next Euros!
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9 hours ago, Satoshi said:

 

But you agree that reaching the playoffs for our WC qualifying group was a success? And would be a success were we to do it again next time? 

No, we didn't qualify 

It can't possibly be called a success 

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9 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Scotland and Austria aren't similar in terms of league (ours is much better) or population (they have over 9 million people, we have just over 5.4m).

 

Really, we have only marginally went ahead of Austria in the UEFA coefficients for the 1st time while they have been in the top 10 for at least 5years, we have been as low as 25th. We also will not maintain that position now we have 5 teams in Europe. Despite Rangers run to the final of the Europa, Scotland were the 11th best nation in Europe this season (Austria were 8th) and that was with an extraordinary run from one of our teams, had they got knocked out by Dortmund we would have been about 18th. 

RB Salzburg are ranked 21st, Rangers are 33rd

Lask are 47th and Celtic are 51st.

If our 3rd place team Hearts draw Austria Vienna in Europe this year, Hearts wouldn't be favourites.

What makes you think our league is way superior?

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12 minutes ago, Binos said:

No, we didn't qualify 

It can't possibly be called a success 

Well, except I'm doing it, as are many others (including probably the SFA).

But what a depressing black and white view you have of the world. Thinking on your wedding day that you're wife is okay but because she's not Megan Fox it's a failure.

I can't possibly imagine how bleak that kind of life is.

Most Scotland fans would have taken the playoffs at the start of the campaign, and most would take it for the next WC qualifying campaign.

5 minutes ago, ahemps said:

Really, we have only marginally went ahead of Austria in the UEFA coefficients for the 1st time while they have been in the top 10 for at least 5years, we have been as low as 25th. We also will not maintain that position now we have 5 teams in Europe. Despite Rangers run to the final of the Europa, Scotland were the 11th best nation in Europe this season (Austria were 8th) and that was with an extraordinary run from one of our teams, had they got knocked out by Dortmund we would have been about 18th. 

RB Salzburg are ranked 21st, Rangers are 33rd

Lask are 47th and Celtic are 51st.

If our 3rd place team Hearts draw Austria Vienna in Europe this year, Hearts wouldn't be favourites.

What makes you think our league is way superior?

There has been three European finalists for Scotland in the past 20 years, Austria last had one in 1996.

Scottish teams have won 3 European trophies in their history, Austria have zero.

It's not even close.

They got a boost when one of their lower league sides was bought over by a Marketing company, but it's hard to see them winning 4 European trophies to overtake Scotland. 

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7 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

There has been three European finalists for Scotland in the past 20 years, Austria last had one in 1996.

Scottish teams have won 3 European trophies in their history, Austria have zero.

It's not even close.

So European trophies won over 40yrs ago count as to how good countries are today?

France have won 1 European trophy in their leagues history, are we better than them?

My argument is to your comment that ours is way better, I'll concede and say it is debateable but no way is it far superior.

Would you bet money on Celtic beating Salzburg? FWIW skybet have Celtic at 250/1 to win the CL, Salzburg are 150/1. They are seen as a far better side.

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26 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Well, except I'm doing it, as are many others (including probably the SFA).

But what a depressing black and white view you have of the world. Thinking on your wedding day that you're wife is okay but because she's not Megan Fox it's a failure.

I can't possibly imagine how bleak that kind of life is.

Most Scotland fans would have taken the playoffs at the start of the campaign, and most would take it for the next WC qualifying campaign.

To be fair, a lot of people absolutely specialise in this fatalism when it comes to Scotland.  

You're right though.  It's often hard to see it when it's the raw feeling after a result, but the past two campaigns have probably been about par for us, maybe slightly above.  We got to the Euros by hook or by crook.  Maybe could have been more comfortable, but we got there, as we absolutely should be from now on in the expanded format.  For the World Cup, a playoff place should have been the target.  Maybe even the bare minimum, although given the World Cup format, I don't think that's particularly fair.  We are in a big pool of nations that should be aiming for that, and a lot of those aren't going to make it.  Given the draw we ended up getting, we can maybe feel a little bit hard done by, particularly with the abject performance we put out, but we got there.  If we actually qualify for a World Cup, it's a massive achievement for us.  If we don't, then it's only really a failure if we fall massively short of a playoff spot.  We didn't.  We absolutely deserved it.

As for this campaign, it's certainly not started well.  It's not over, but it's going to need us to not drop any points from now on.  If we don't top the group, our playoff backdoor is potentially gone, and we could be 3rd seeds. That's not necessarily a disaster, all depends on our draw and how we perform.

So aye, we fail to qualify for the Euros, and we absolutely fail, and any manager would be punted.  We haven't reached that point yet.

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3 minutes ago, forameus said:

As for this campaign, it's certainly not started well.  It's not over, but it's going to need us to not drop any points from now on.  If we don't top the group, our playoff backdoor is potentially gone, and we could be 3rd seeds. That's not necessarily a disaster, all depends on our draw and how we perform.

So aye, we fail to qualify for the Euros, and we absolutely fail, and any manager would be punted.  We haven't reached that point yet.

I think people forget that while an important avenue for qualification we don't really know where the Nations League sits in terms of Steve Clarke's contract. I would be surprised if he was sacked if we don't finish 1st in our Nations League group.  On the other hand if we were relegated to League C I can't imagine there wouldn't be any repercussions. 

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50 minutes ago, ahemps said:

So European trophies won over 40yrs ago count as to how good countries are today?

France have won 1 European trophy in their leagues history, are we better than them?

My argument is to your comment that ours is way better, I'll concede and say it is debateable but no way is it far superior.

Would you bet money on Celtic beating Salzburg? FWIW skybet have Celtic at 250/1 to win the CL, Salzburg are 150/1. They are seen as a far better side.

I didn't really specify today, just said our league was much better. And it is, and has been for well over 50 years.

And my post actually specified that we had reached three European finals in the last 20 years, compared to zero for Austria.

RB Salzburg are hardly an indication of the strength of the Austrian league, more its weakness that a marketing company can quickly transform a nothing side into one that wins the Championship by miles. Maybe Aberdeen is the best comparison and they probably wouldn't win the SPFL if they were bought by Red Bull.

Are they a better team than Celtic? Yeah, probably, and if that is the best the Austrian league can offer (a nation with a rich footballing history) then it's a bit sad really. 

Also Rangers beat their big cousins RB Leipzig this season so the gulf probably isn't that big anyway.

For me the Scottish league is absolutely better, and that's before getting into our proportional attendances pissing all over theirs.

15 minutes ago, forameus said:

To be fair, a lot of people absolutely specialise in this fatalism when it comes to Scotland.  

You're right though.  It's often hard to see it when it's the raw feeling after a result, but the past two campaigns have probably been about par for us, maybe slightly above.  We got to the Euros by hook or by crook.  Maybe could have been more comfortable, but we got there, as we absolutely should be from now on in the expanded format.  For the World Cup, a playoff place should have been the target.  Maybe even the bare minimum, although given the World Cup format, I don't think that's particularly fair.  We are in a big pool of nations that should be aiming for that, and a lot of those aren't going to make it.  Given the draw we ended up getting, we can maybe feel a little bit hard done by, particularly with the abject performance we put out, but we got there.  If we actually qualify for a World Cup, it's a massive achievement for us.  If we don't, then it's only really a failure if we fall massively short of a playoff spot.  We didn't.  We absolutely deserved it.

As for this campaign, it's certainly not started well.  It's not over, but it's going to need us to not drop any points from now on.  If we don't top the group, our playoff backdoor is potentially gone, and we could be 3rd seeds. That's not necessarily a disaster, all depends on our draw and how we perform.

So aye, we fail to qualify for the Euros, and we absolutely fail, and any manager would be punted.  We haven't reached that point yet.

Good post, and yes this forum will wildly sway one way after a victory, and one way after a defeat, but for those with a longer term perspective there is always more context to give.

Steve Clarke has managed to turn it round in the last two campaigns after ropey starts so still plenty to be optimistic about.

It's been two dire performances in three so plenty to be concerned about as well.

Overall, we had a good manager and an excellent group of players so I'm more in the former camp.

Every nation will have good and bad results, not many will sink into the despair and fatalism all too present on this forum.

I would much rather be Scotland than Ireland at the moment. So would Ireland fans.

Edited by Satoshi
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1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

I think people forget that while an important avenue for qualification we don't really know where the Nations League sits in terms of Steve Clarke's contract. I would be surprised if he was sacked if we don't finish 1st in our Nations League group.  On the other hand if we were relegated to League C I can't imagine there wouldn't be any repercussions. 

I think it'll end up being situational, or at least should be.  It's always been difficult to put anything rigid in about Scotland managers due to our standing.  World Cups were a massive stretch to get to, so not really fair to put a need to qualify for one into a contract.  Euros have only recently become what they are.  It's not necessarily the plain result, it's how we got there, devoid of any emotional element.  We got to the World Cup playoffs, great.  Should it matter that once we got there, we probably stood a good chance but shat the bed?  More difficult to say.  We finished 4th in that group with Germany, Poland and Ireland, very narrowly missing out on the playoffs, probably because of one result against Georgia.  Outside of that, I don't remember it feeling like a bad campaign, certainly not the worst in recent memory.  But we finished 4th in a group for an expanded Euros.

I'd like to see us move to something more rigid now that the opportunities are clearer.  Next manager when we inevitably punt Clarke should start preparing for a campaign and have a contract for that one campaign.  At the end if he's achieved the aims, he goes.  We should rarely punt managers when fans call for it, but the SFA have traditionally. been really reticent to make the decision, and we end up getting a manager in during a doomed campaign blowing his load too early in games that don't matter.

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

Good post, and yes this forum will wildly sway one way after a victory, and one way after a defeat, but for those with a longer term perspective there is always more context to give.

Steve Clarke has managed to turn it round in the last two campaigns after ropey starts so still plenty to be optimistic about.

It's been two dire performances in three so plenty to be concerned about as well.

Overall, we had a good manager and an excellent group of players so I'm more in the former camp.

Every nation will have good and bad results, not many will sink into the despair and fatalism all too present on this forum.

I would much rather be Scotland than Ireland at the moment. So would Ireland fans.

I think there's still questions to answer.  He's shown that he can set up a team to frustrate or sometimes beat bigger teams (England and Denmark) and he's shown that he can get us results in some potential banana-skin games (Faroes, Armenia etc). But I don't think he's shown enough about recovering from when things do go bad.  International football is unforgiving.  As a club manager a couple of poor results can be remedied the next week, with this you have to have a plan for every eventuality.  Does Clarke?  

I'd broadly agree with what you say, and disagree with random knee-jerk reactions, but I would agree with those sitting across the middle at either end.  It absolutely could be much worse (one of my pet hates) but Clarke has some things he needs to work on fast.  And the SFA should be (but won't be) across those.

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1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

I didn't really specify today, just said our league was much better. And it is, and has been for well over 50 years.

And my post actually specified that we had reached three European finals in the last 20 years, compared to zero for Austria.

RB Salzburg are hardly an indication of the strength of the Austrian league, more its weakness that a marketing company can quickly transform a nothing side into one that wins the Championship by miles. Maybe Aberdeen is the best comparison and they probably wouldn't win the SPFL if they were bought by Red Bull.

Are they a better team than Celtic? Yeah, probably, and if that is the best the Austrian league can offer (a nation with a rich footballing history) then it's a bit sad really. 

Also Rangers beat their big cousins RB Leipzig this season so the gulf probably isn't that big anyway.

For me the Scottish league is absolutely better, and that's before getting into our proportional attendances pissing all over theirs.

 

5 different league winners this century compared to 2 in Scotland.

You admit their best team is likely better than ours then say that is sad?????.......Sad how? For your argument?

Money is without doubt the biggest factor in football right now, Rangers and Celtic have benefactors, individuals or groups or whatever. RB is a company.....guess what, all these directors from the OF have companies. Does it really matter where their money comes from?

Salzburg have been developing players and selling them on to a level the OF can only dream of. In the last 10yrs they have had players like Mane, Haaland, Sabitzer and Minamino. Only Van Dijk is in that bracket of superstars to play in this country. Both the OF teams would bite your hand off to do what they are doing.

I'll bet Austria Vienna (3rd placed team) outperform Hearts this year which shows the strength of depth in the league and their 4th and 5th teams will also likely get group football where as it'll be pretty amazing achievement if we get more than 3.

I'm sorry to derail the thread but no way is the Scottish Premier vastly better which is what you are saying.

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3 hours ago, ahemps said:

5 different league winners this century compared to 2 in Scotland.

You admit their best team is likely better than ours then say that is sad?????.......Sad how? For your argument?

Money is without doubt the biggest factor in football right now, Rangers and Celtic have benefactors, individuals or groups or whatever. RB is a company.....guess what, all these directors from the OF have companies. Does it really matter where their money comes from?

Salzburg have been developing players and selling them on to a level the OF can only dream of. In the last 10yrs they have had players like Mane, Haaland, Sabitzer and Minamino. Only Van Dijk is in that bracket of superstars to play in this country. Both the OF teams would bite your hand off to do what they are doing.

I'll bet Austria Vienna (3rd placed team) outperform Hearts this year which shows the strength of depth in the league and their 4th and 5th teams will also likely get group football where as it'll be pretty amazing achievement if we get more than 3.

I'm sorry to derail the thread but no way is the Scottish Premier vastly better which is what you are saying.

It's sad their best team is a marketing corporation, most Austiran fans agree with me on that.

As for your third paragraph, good god that's an incredible level of ignorance. The RB clubs are owned by a marketing company, Rangers and Celtic directors having seperate businesses is completely different. Surely you realised how wrong this comparison was after posting it? I really hope so.

The RB clubs are hated in most countries they operate in, they are a completely different setup to most football clubs (and all Scottish clubs).

And yeah, Celtic and Rangers would love to be doing what RB are doing. It's not surprising a genuine company is run better than the bunch of weridos and gangsters involved in Rangers and Celtic, it would be bizarre if that wasn't the case.

I mean, they have almost double our population and have a much worse record in Europe. But if this is the hill you want to die on fine.

Austria Vienna are the biggest club in Vienna, a city almost four times the size of Edinburgh. You would strongly expect them to be better than Hearts. Still less European trophies than Aberdeen, Rangers or Celtic though.

Vienna is a brilliant, underrated city incidentally and I really enjoyed my Austian Wien FM save this year (despite the bizarre split).

RB Salzburg took 55 points from 22 games, the second placed team had 37. Salzburg just won their 9th title in a row and, given how dominant they are, will probably win around 9. Austrian fans are pretty depressed about this turn of events and I can see why.

Our record in European competition is much better than Austria, we are a smaller nation but massively outperform them in reaching European finals and winning European trophies (both in the past and recently). Surely you agree on that? 

Edited by Satoshi
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7 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Well, except I'm doing it, as are many others (including probably the SFA).

 

If the sfa are calling it a success that's a clear sign that it wasn't 

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