How Much Time

[Insaintee]

Listening to Shaun Maloney made me think how much time should a new manager get. Four months is very short, but I think most hibbies seem to think that was enough. Equally Steven Glass was at the Dons less than a year was that enough time?  I think most Dons would say so, But how much time should Jim Goodwin get? How much time should Robertson get? 

There is case that Tam Courts could have gone after 4 months at Dundee United, if Jim had led St Mirren to the same slump as Roberston would his coat be on a shoogly peg? 

 

[Leith Green]

I think it depends if there are grounds for optimism or not.

As Marvin Bartley comments today, persisting with a formation the players cant fulfil, having thinks like 4 matches with no shots on target means your time is limited.

4 months is very short, but there was a reason why 4 months seems about right.

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/hibs/ex-bayern-munich-star-tipped-for-hibs-hotseat-as-favourite-says-19-games-enough-for-shaun-maloney-3664160

[Joe Terrapin]

2 minutes ago, Insaintee said:

Listening to Shaun Maloney made me think how much time should a new manager get. Four months is very short, but I think most hibbies seem to think that was enough. Equally Steven Glass was at the Dons less than a year was that enough time?  I think most Dons would say so, But how much time should Jim Goodwin get? How much time should Robertson get? 

There is case that Tam Courts could have gone after 4 months at Dundee United, if Jim had led St Mirren to the same slump as Roberston would his coat be on a shoogly peg? 

 

Robinson? Is he making that much of an impression?

4 months ridiculous. A year about right but other considertaions have to be taken into account. What about Goodwin's slump at Aberdeen? Hardly been an improvement.

 

[AJF]

I've normally thought 2 transfer windows should be given to each manager in a new position. If there is still no improvement after that then it's time to move on.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

You always need to give them a chance to build their own squad imo. 

At least 1 transfer window bare minimum unless there's some crazy scandal etc. 

[thisGRAEME]

4 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

You always need to give them a chance to build their own squad imo. 

At least 1 transfer window bare minimum unless there's some crazy scandal etc. 

I'm kind of in two minds about this.

In Maloney's case; yes, he was dealt a fairly bum hand with their best player leaving, and a fairly unbalanced squad.

Similarly; they were roundly hopeless, and surely in four months, you'd have seen some kind of improvement, in... some kind of way. And with Maloney from the outside looking in, there was nothing. To go four games or whatever and not register a shot on target at more or less any football level, simply won't do. 

[Leith Green]

Should have added in mine above - Maloney (and some commentators) were dribbling on about how we "played well" in the semi v Hearts.

Total pish, we sold the match by the 20th minute.

One of the reasons the mistake happened for the first goal was players being told to play a certain way, but not having the ability to implement it. 

Maloneys "play out from the back" mantra was both obvious and simple to close down as most of our defenders struggled with it, and our keeper is shite with the ball at his feet. All of this breeds a nervousness that was fucking obvious for weeks.

Yes, he was deal t a crap hand losing Boyle and Nisbet, but a coach with a brain would have decided to be pragmatic with the rubbish that remained for the rest of the season, and get his own players in thru the summer and coach them accordingly.

He might have still been here, but instead he persisted and - almost worse - tried to tell us that we were improving.

 

[BigDoddyKane]

Getting rid of a young inexperienced manager after 4 months seems more the fault of the board that hired him than the manager to me. Why employ somone like that if you arent looking at the long term and being prepared to wait a year for them to learn the job at the least. Maloney wasnt given any chance to learn so why hire him at all. If they want something in 4 months then hire someone whos already expereinced and successful.  It looks like whoever is doing the hiring is clueless.

Edited April 22, 2022 by BigDoddyKane

[Insaintee]

Maloney comes across as much more of a coach than a manager

[philpy]

This has to be the shortest managerial spell in Scotland surely??https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12027650.mclean-quits-raith-to-join-his-brother/

[Hendo]

1 hour ago, philpy said:

This has to be the shortest managerial spell in Scotland surely??https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12027650.mclean-quits-raith-to-join-his-brother/

Not quite. Around the same time Iain Munro became our manager for a day before jumping ship to Raith.

[VincentGuerin]

All about the context.

I'd say in general you're looking at a manager who comes in during a season deserving at least the following pre-season and summer transfer window. Otherwise you're judging him on the previous guy's squad and there'll be a lot of square pegs in round holes.

Of course, this is a result of Scottish clubs not generally being well-run and having a DoF. This idea of each coach coming in and tearing everything up to implement his own ideas is madness and extremely financially wasteful.

I do sort of sympathise with Maloney here. He was dealt a bad hand with the sale of his best player and then injury. And while it's reasonable to criticise him trying to play in a way that didn't suit his players, Ange at Celtic did that and just worked at it until it worked. Obviously dealing with better players, but I can also see the argument for just implementing 'this is how we do things'. Hibs could probably have afforded to give him the summer and let him actually have a reasonable kick of the ball with suitable players, but there we go.

But, in general, Scottish clubs are their own worst enemy in terms of a lack of structure and focus. Far too much emphasis on the coach.

[Chefki Kuqi]

In my fantasy land everyone should get two years minimum, so long as you haven't been lied to in the recruitment process by the candidate about their ability/availability/etc, or said employee turns out to be a nasty piece of work/borderline/actual criminal. 

Come up with a plan of what you want, do your due diligence and hire accordingly. To a degree its like investing in the stock market, if you keep buying then selling when the stock is low surely at some point you're fucked? I mean I guess its not exactly like this as many clubs do exactly this and aren't fucked, not completely anyway. Still though, there is something to be said about riding out the waves of shite.

I think Maloney's problem was ultimately his personality was naturally shy, almost snivelling sounding, he misrepresented games and chose some odd things to kick off about. In a sense it's not like he'd grow a personality in those two years, but at the very least you'd have to hope he'd have become a better coach and maybe led in that way.

Ultimately though the point I make at the start of the second paragraph is fairly crucial. If the guy is demanding to hire Gary Caldwell as his assistant manager he should never make it past the interview. 

 

[hk blues]

About 3 months less than James McPake got is the correct answer.

[coprolite]

The absolute period of time is less important than the trajectory and circumstances. 

For Glass at Aberdeen, he'd had 2 transfer windows and we were getting worse. There was some early promise (Hacken at home) that never showed up again and he clearly had no idea what to do. 

Goodwin has had shit results so far but we have mainly looked like we have more direction and he's clear what he wants to do. 

It does look like Hibs were harsh on Maloney but qualitatively he looked more like Glass than Goodwin. I can see why the board would want to cut their losses. 

[Billy Jean King]

There's a massive difference shopping in the winter window to the summer one, so much so that I can't see how a manager can be judged properly having only been given the single winter window to try to put his own squad together.

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, coprolite said:

The absolute period of time is less important than the trajectory and circumstances. 

For Glass at Aberdeen, he'd had 2 transfer windows and we were getting worse. There was some early promise (Hacken at home) that never showed up again and he clearly had no idea what to do. 

Goodwin has had shit results so far but we have mainly looked like we have more direction and he's clear what he wants to do. 

It does look like Hibs were harsh on Maloney but qualitatively he looked more like Glass than Goodwin. I can see why the board would want to cut their losses. 

I agree, the length of time isn’t that important in itself. Folk look at results etc but you don’t see the working relationships within the club between manager and players, manager and staff, manager and chairman etc. if these aren’t working then giving them x amount of time as default isn’t really of any benefit. 

What I would say is that you do have to protect the perception of your club. Sacking a manager who finished 3rd and just reached a cup final to embark on a grand project with maloney, then give up on it after 4 months isn’t a great look. 

Not saying either decision is wrong but there could be a perception created for prospective managers. 

[pozbaird]

Depends on the club. If St Mirren had taken a punt on Sean Maloney and we’d slipped into the bottom 6 and lost in the cup, then, just like Robinson, we’d have given him time. For three reasons probably. One, we don’t really have lofty expectations despite Tony’s Top 6 patter, and unlike a Hibs or Aberdeen, aren’t talking about ‘taking this club where it needs to be’. Two, we just can’t afford to return to a revolving door of managers. We need to hope we’ve got it right. We need to remember that both Jack Ross and Jim Goodwin had pretty awful starts to their St Mirren careers, but it worked out. Thirdly, we don’t have home crowds of 15,000 or so who can pour pressure on owners from the stands. We tend to shuffle out after the latest shitfest defeat, feeling nothing more than ‘we’ve seen this movie before’.

So, specifically regarding St Mirren and Robinson, he’ll be given time, even if we stay up courtesy of an own goal that deflects off a hapless opponent’s arse  in the 94th minute of the relegation playoffs. He’ll get time to ship out and ship in. My personal view is that if we get relegated from the position we were in when Robinson took over, then his arse should be bounced down Greenhill Road at a rate of knots only matched by Usain Bolt in his prime.

[DA Baracus]

Going to agree with the 'depends' point of view.

For example, Peter Grant (the worst managerial appointment in our history) was very clearly a monumental mistake very early on and probably got longer than he deserved. Likewise, St Mirren knew Alan Stubbs wasn't up to it and correctly binned him early. I think Glass at Aberdeen was given enough time and very clearly wasn't good enough.

I think half the clubs in the Championship have changed manager this season, and can't think of any punting being harsh.

I think Maloney could be another case of it very obviously not ever going to work out, although I've only seen highlights of Hibs, so perhaps he could have been allowed the summer to build a squad and it may have worked out differently.

There will be some harsh sackings, although struggling to think of any right now. The high turnover of squads, driven by shorter term contracts (itself driven by finances), doesn't help things, so perhaps managerial turnover is now aligning with player turnover.

[wastecoatwilly]

I think Hibs have made a Rod for their own back (pardon the pun).Any short period doesn't look good for any club.
In every other business there is a hand over, football delivers no guarantees for managers because it's ruthless.
I tend to think 6 month's is to short but a year or season can be to long,for me this is why it's a merry-go-round.
There is no loyalty in the game now,4 years is a long period for managers and players.