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22 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Wrong how?

Perhaps people don't immediately understand the acronym, but if you tell them that spending less than they earn and saving and investing the bit they don't spend will likely help them retire at a younger age, they will probably look at you like you are a fucking idiot for thinking you had to explain that concept to them.

There's a big difference between knowing it, and doing it.

Every day, wherever you look, there's something offering instant gratification. That costs money.

Yet, where in the education system is there anything significant that offers a counterbalance ?

I recall nothing from mine.

 

Long ago, Margaret Thatcher decided, or to be more exact, she and all the financial gurus that formed

her philosophies, decided that privatisation was the thing to be done with public services.

One of these was the then British Gas. There was a huge advertising campaign to attract the 'man in the street'.

"If you see Sid … Tell him" was the slogan.  'Sid' definitely was interested. And bought shedloads of the shares at what
was, as I recall, generally regarded as a great price. Unfotunately Sid's understanding of what it means to invest for the long term
was so limited that before long a huge chunk of those shares bought by Sids ended up back in the hands of big financial institutions.
 
 
You tell me, you work for a financial institution, where do you get your assumption from that everyone knows about FIRE etc ?
 
If everyone was so financially literate, there would be no need for things like NEST, that has only come along in the last few years.

 

 

Edited by beefybake
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12 minutes ago, beefybake said:

There's a big difference between knowing it, and doing it.

Every day, wherever you look, there's something offering instant gratification. That costs money.

Yet, where in the education system is there anything significant that offers a counterbalance ?

I recall nothing from mine.

 

Long ago, Margaret Thatcher decided, or to be more exact, she and all the financial gurus that formed

her philosophies, decided that privatisation was the thing to be done with public services.

One of these was the then British Gas. There was a huge advertising campaign to attract the 'man in the street'.

"If you see Sid … Tell him" was the slogan.  'Sid' definitely was interested. And bought shedloads of the shares at what
was, as I recall, generally regarded as a great price. Unfotunately Sid's understanding of what it means to invest for the long term
was so limited that before long a huge chunk of those shares bought by Sids ended up back in the hands of big financial institutions.
 
 
You tell me, you work for a financial institution, where do you get your assumption from that everyone knows about FIRE etc ?
 
If everyone was so financially literate, there would be no need for things like NEST, that has only come along in the last few years.

 

 

You seem to be confusing "People understand the concept" with "People pay attention to it and do it".

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38 minutes ago, Ross. said:

Wrong how?

Perhaps people don't immediately understand the acronym, but if you tell them that spending less than they earn and saving and investing the bit they don't spend will likely help them retire at a younger age, they will probably look at you like you are a fucking idiot for thinking you had to explain that concept to them.

Grateful to see this clarified. Been dipping into to the thread occasionally thinking wtf are they on about, thought it must be some 12 steps programme or something. 

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15 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

If you're feeling patronised by it then don't bother reading it.

This stuff may be obvious to you but lots of people in the world are not financially literate (knowledgable about the benefits and practicalities of investments for example). Most of them don't particularly care, but some poeple do and I guess this thread is aimed at them.

For years the myth existed that active fund managers were worthwhile, one of the things that FIRE has done is help to publicise how this simply isn't the case. And whilst that may be obvious to you, it isn't obvious to everyone. 

And I'm far from an expert, just some randomner on the internet, there's been plenty posted on this thread that I didn't know. 

I mean I guess. 

But my point was that if people are coming into your thread and asking what FIRE is, as I was, and one of the first responses begins with 'I think its about recognising that life does, in fact, give us choices' then they're probably more likely to be turned off by what a patronising comment that is than anything else. You don't need to be financially literate to understand that you have free will.

You're bringing up stuff now about investments and active fund managers etc. and I can see how that is the kind of thing that would be genuinely useful but it took me asking you multiple times to get us to that point and you only seem to have brought it up to try to imply that I'm looking down on people who don't understand these things.

Just to be clear the only thing I was stating was obvious is the concept that 'spend less than you earn, saving money if you can is good' because this is the only thing that is involved in FIRE based on your own posts earlier today.

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1 minute ago, beefybake said:

Nope.  And you're into diversion.

It's really not a diversion. It's a comment on the absurdity of the tone of a lot of this thread.

A lot of people won't understand the acronym. Most of them will very likely understand the basic theory behind it when explained.

There will be plenty of people out there who save for early retirement by following the principles but have never actually heard of FIRE. There will also be plenty of people out there who have heard of FIRE but for a variety of reasons don't follow the principles and pursue the goal.

If you can, and you want to, it's a great idea. I have been in this industry now for the best part of 20 years and have received regular training courses on retirement planning and how to invest for the future and a lot of other shite on top. I know exactly what I should do, I just don't really bother. In the next couple of years, I intend on throwing myself into retirement planning with gusto.

Now as I am typing this, it has put me in mind of a guy who delivered a great many of those training sessions when I worked for Barclays. Absolute diamond of a guy by the name of John Cotter, who released a book I would heartily recommend reading if you are a beginner in the markets and investing. He was a fantastic teacher and simplified things in a way that a lot of people who work in selling these ideas can only dream of. He died not long after he retired...

https://www.harriman-house.com/cotter-on-investing

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Do you not appreciate that if everyone does this the whole system will fall apart?
The big difference these days is that computers are increasingly being used to buy and sell.
If we're all using the same algorithms, then when the algorithm detects a problem with a stock and decides to sell it for one person, everyone's algorithm (becaue it's the same algorithm) will also sell causing a massive crash in that stock.
If you're investing in "averages", whatever that means, you'd still lose out.
It's like pyramid selling. It only seriously works for early adopters who then bail before the bubble bursts. Once everyone starts doing it becomes much more risky with much less reward.
For that reason you can't compare with what has happened over the last 50 years. It's a totally different world now.


Everyone does what? Invests in the stock market? The vast majority of British adults are invested in the market, if you have workplace pension you’re in the stock market. And if you’re employed in this country you’ll have one of them -unless you’ve opted out.
You’re confusing day trading and speculating with stocks with long term investing. They aren’t the same thing, the day to day fluctuations of the market are completely irrelevant to buy and hold investors. Some years it will go up, some years it will go down, in the long term it goes up, that’s always been true.
It’s not like pyramid selling at all. If you invest in a global tracker fund you own a little bit of every single publicly traded company in the world. Some stocks will go up 5000%+ (Tesla, Apple, Amazon etc) some will go down 100% and go bust. But you own them all, so that’s okay, no individual stock matters, the average does. Not sure what you mean by early adopters? Portfolio investment has been around for hundreds of years. Jack Bogle set up the first index fund in the 1970’s. This is not a new idea, the people doing this now are not early adopters.
If the average global stock market value did go down over a 10 year plus period something really strange has happened and the fund value will be the least of our worries.
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2 hours ago, Lex said:

 


Everyone does what? Invests in the stock market? The vast majority of British adults are invested in the market, if you have workplace pension you’re in the stock market. And if you’re employed in this country you’ll have one of them -unless you’ve opted out.
You’re confusing day trading and speculating with stocks with long term investing. They aren’t the same thing, the day to day fluctuations of the market are completely irrelevant to buy and hold investors. Some years it will go up, some years it will go down, in the long term it goes up, that’s always been true.
It’s not like pyramid selling at all. If you invest in a global tracker fund you own a little bit of every single publicly traded company in the world. Some stocks will go up 5000%+ (Tesla, Apple, Amazon etc) some will go down 100% and go bust. But you own them all, so that’s okay, no individual stock matters, the average does. Not sure what you mean by early adopters? Portfolio investment has been around for hundreds of years. Jack Bogle set up the first index fund in the 1970’s. This is not a new idea, the people doing this now are not early adopters.
If the average global stock market value did go down over a 10 year plus period something really strange has happened and the fund value will be the least of our worries.

 

If everyone adopts FIRE as a concept then the economy will tank due to the lack of spending.  It is only consumerism that keeps the whole thing going.  Stop that and your Starbucks, Pret etc disappear along with associated jobs.  It's what happens when you move to a service based economy.

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2 hours ago, strichener said:

If everyone adopts FIRE as a concept then the economy will tank due to the lack of spending.  It is only consumerism that keeps the whole thing going.  Stop that and your Starbucks, Pret etc disappear along with associated jobs.  It's what happens when you move to a service based economy.

If everyone adopts a healthy eating and exercise regime you could argue that companies like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, Starbucks, Pret, Pizza Hut, Domino’s and all the other junk food takeaways that have sprouted up everywhere in the UK since the 70s would disappear along with associated jobs.

Some would argue closure of these companies would not be a bad thing given the crippling issues with obesity and associated health issues affecting our population young and old. 

It’s never going to happen.

Many people are inherently lazy and will not change their lifestyles either through exercise, eating or investing for their future. 

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If everyone adopts FIRE as a concept then the economy will tank due to the lack of spending.  It is only consumerism that keeps the whole thing going.  Stop that and your Starbucks, Pret etc disappear along with associated jobs.  It's what happens when you move to a service based economy.


Oh yeah that’s true, but that will never, ever happen, and nor should it. Consumerism is way too integrated in our society.
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23 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

If everyone adopts a healthy eating and exercise regime you could argue that companies like KFC, McDonalds, Burger King, Starbucks, Pret, Pizza Hut, Domino’s and all the other junk food takeaways that have sprouted up everywhere in the UK since the 70s would disappear along with associated jobs.

Some would argue closure of these companies would not be a bad thing given the crippling issues with obesity and associated health issues affecting our population young and old. 

It’s never going to happen.

Many people are inherently lazy and will not change their lifestyles either through exercise, eating or investing for their future. 

Mate with the way the cost of living is going people can't afford to eat healthily.  We will soon be seeing the return of rickets,  osteomalacia and  other diseases brought on by poor diet.

I don't disagree that many people are lazy but there is a financial implication in replacing poor nutritional food such as highly processed food with fruit and veg.  Not everyone can choose the healthy options even when they want to, many are reliant on food banks and buying whatever is out of date at the shops.  

None of this really relevant to FIRE though.  Well apart from those that can't afford to feed themselves correctly are not giving a f**k about FIRE.

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20 minutes ago, Lex said:

 


Oh yeah that’s true, but that will never, ever happen, and nor should it. Consumerism is way too integrated in our society.

 

I don’t get this that the economy will tank. If anything it is more likely to grow. By investing in the global companies of the world you are contributing directly to jobs, research, marketing and sales.  

I’ve probably now amassed more wealth through investing than I have through my career and I started late to investing as it was not easily accessible when I first started working.

I intend to spend most of that accumulated money when I decide to retire. First class all the way gaining experiences at home and abroad through travel, hotels, gigs, restaurants, etc. Although I’ve done much of that already there are so many places in Scotland and abroad I want to experience.

Some of those investments will pay for my end of life care. My kids will likely inherit what’s left. 

The growth on those investments and the compound interest over time is what creates that choice for the future.

Good luck to anyone starting out on investing in your future. It takes time. Just remember no one else will.

It has never been easier than today to start.

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46 minutes ago, strichener said:

None of this really relevant to FIRE though.  Well apart from those that can't afford to feed themselves correctly are not giving a f**k about FIRE.

I agree.
My comment was in relation to the “economy is going to tank” argument which I disagree with hence my counter.

I have volunteered at a local foodbank for a number of years so understand the impact of a variety of social and economic issues. 
It’s only likely to get worse with a combination of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine to name but three recent events.

But I guess we have separate threads to discuss those issues. 

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7 hours ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

I mean I guess. 

But my point was that if people are coming into your thread and asking what FIRE is, as I was, and one of the first responses begins with 'I think its about recognising that life does, in fact, give us choices' then they're probably more likely to be turned off by what a patronising comment that is than anything else. You don't need to be financially literate to understand that you have free will.

You're bringing up stuff now about investments and active fund managers etc. and I can see how that is the kind of thing that would be genuinely useful but it took me asking you multiple times to get us to that point and you only seem to have brought it up to try to imply that I'm looking down on people who don't understand these things.

Just to be clear the only thing I was stating was obvious is the concept that 'spend less than you earn, saving money if you can is good' because this is the only thing that is involved in FIRE based on your own posts earlier today.

You don't have to ask me multiple times, what I posted has already been covered in the thread several times by me and others.

This was a 12 page thread when I posted earlier today, and you're criticising me for not regurgitating everything just because you asked for a breakdown? Read it yourself!

The basic concept behind FIRE is simple (perhaps patronising to you, but far from obvious to everyone). If you want to dive further into it, there are complexities about taxation and splitting your savings between SIPP, ISA and GSA. This thread can only ever really be a snapshot, but there's still plenty of good advice in it. If you want to dive in further you can, plenty of far smarter people than me will be able to articulate it better.

 

7 hours ago, Ross. said:

It's really not a diversion. It's a comment on the absurdity of the tone of a lot of this thread.

A lot of people won't understand the acronym. Most of them will very likely understand the basic theory behind it when explained.

There will be plenty of people out there who save for early retirement by following the principles but have never actually heard of FIRE. There will also be plenty of people out there who have heard of FIRE but for a variety of reasons don't follow the principles and pursue the goal.

If you can, and you want to, it's a great idea. I have been in this industry now for the best part of 20 years and have received regular training courses on retirement planning and how to invest for the future and a lot of other shite on top. I know exactly what I should do, I just don't really bother. In the next couple of years, I intend on throwing myself into retirement planning with gusto.

Now as I am typing this, it has put me in mind of a guy who delivered a great many of those training sessions when I worked for Barclays. Absolute diamond of a guy by the name of John Cotter, who released a book I would heartily recommend reading if you are a beginner in the markets and investing. He was a fantastic teacher and simplified things in a way that a lot of people who work in selling these ideas can only dream of. He died not long after he retired...

https://www.harriman-house.com/cotter-on-investing

Re. tone, you're made it clear that you work in the industry and have received regular training courses on retirement planning. Of course the tone is going to be patronising and simplistic to you, it's aimed at posters on a football forum with a wide range of experiences and backgrounds, not literal finance professionals.

I would be shocked if there is anything that I know about investing that you don't.

This thread is not about showing off how much you know, it's about offering practical advice that might help other people (and directing them towards resources with more information / better advice). Sometimes it will be too simplistic and somtimes it will be too detailed, it's an impossible balance to get right. If a 20 year finance industry veteran thinks the tone isn't suited to his vast experience, then we are probably on the right track. 

 

5 hours ago, strichener said:

If everyone adopts FIRE as a concept then the economy will tank due to the lack of spending.  It is only consumerism that keeps the whole thing going.  Stop that and your Starbucks, Pret etc disappear along with associated jobs.  It's what happens when you move to a service based economy.

I think only a small proportion of the world will untimately adopt FIRE (only a small proportion have the ability to currently), but even if it does become widespread the type of consumerist spending above will be replaced by something else.

And, also to be clear, plenty of people who want to follow the principles of FIRE will still enjoy a Starbucks (not me though, I'm more of a smoothie guy).

Edited by Satoshi
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5 hours ago, Satoshi said:

Re. tone, you're made it clear that you work in the industry and have received regular training courses on retirement planning. Of course the tone is going to be patronising and simplistic to you, it's aimed at posters on a football forum with a wide range of experiences and backgrounds, not literal finance professionals.

I didn’t say it was patronising and simplistic, I said it was preachy and evangelical. That, to me, is the issue. It sounds like a sales pitch, and that can be very offputting to a lot of people.

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15 minutes ago, Ross. said:

I didn’t say it was patronising and simplistic, I said it was preachy and evangelical. That, to me, is the issue. It sounds like a sales pitch, and that can be very offputting to a lot of people.

Except nothing is being sold as the advice offered is free, and often points to other free advice.

If people think it's preachy and evangelical then that's fine, it's in the eye of the beholder after all.

Do you have any advice as to how it can be expressed better?

And, perhaps I'm lacking self awareness, but I don't consider myself an evangelist at all - there is plenty of weaknesses and contradictions in FIRE and I have mentioned them multiple times (including in the opening post).

Edited by Satoshi
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35 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Except nothing is being sold as the advice offered is free, and often points to other free advice.

If people think it's preachy and evangelical then that's fine, it's in the eye of the beholder after all.

Do you have any advice as to how it can be expressed better?

And, perhaps I'm lacking self awareness, but I don't consider myself an evangelist at all - there is plenty of weaknesses and contradictions in FIRE and I have mentioned them multiple times (including in the opening post).

Spend less than you earn, invest what you save, diversify what you invest, don’t expect it to work overnight, and make sure you take advantage of the freebies*

*Not really freebies but things like increasing pension contributions to the limit of whatever your employer will match and sharesave schemes that give you a discount (which is essentially a hedge against the price dropping in the worst case scenario) are the least you should be doing.

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13 hours ago, strichener said:

If everyone adopts FIRE as a concept then the economy will tank due to the lack of spending.  It is only consumerism that keeps the whole thing going.  Stop that and your Starbucks, Pret etc disappear along with associated jobs.  It's what happens when you move to a service based economy.

To be fair it looks like the government are going to try their best to end a service based economy.

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