FIRE Discussion and Resources

[vikingTON]

It's just an ideology designed to allow the privileged to claim that they pulled themselves up by their own hard work and sacrifice. It's as old as the hills; bourgeois Victorians were busy lapping up the same pish - with bonus Christian morality - in Samuel Smiles' Self Help. 

[Lex]

If you think someone on a minimum wage, zero hour contract can afford to put money towards a pension, an emergency fund and further investments from one paycheck then you're all but proving my point. This stuff is for people with disposable income. Which is fine, but some of it comes across as preachy and that everyone can just do it if they wanted to.

It just depends on expenses, there’s numerous examples of people on low incomes achieving FI.
On the opposite end there’s plenty of people on high incomes who are skint at the end of every month because they are spending more than what comes in.
But i said at the start, this is not for everyone, it’s not even for most people, Infact it wouldn’t actually work if most people did it. However it’s certainly a growing community and for anyone who’s interested in it there’s plenty of resources out there to get started with.

[beefybake]

27 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If you think someone on a minimum wage, zero hour contract can afford to put money towards a pension, an emergency fund and further investments from one paycheck then you're all but proving my point. This stuff is for people with disposable income. Which is fine, but some of it comes across as preachy and that everyone can just do it if they wanted to.

If you start thinking in terms of discretionary income, rather than disposable income, you will be on the right track.  As compared with consuming going in the mouth at one end, and being disposed of as waste at the other.

The Money Moustache guy Is far from preachy. He's more towards... "JUST F*CKING DO IT... ".

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by beefybake

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, beefybake said:

If you start thinking in terms of discretionary income, rather than disposable income, you will be on the right track.  As compared with consuming going in the mouth at one end, and being disposed of as waste at the other.

Load of shite, excuse the pun. 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

39 minutes ago, Lex said:

 

First thing I’d do - if you’re interested in this - is read a simple path to wealth. It’s all there.
The basic steps are, firstly get rid of all consumer debt. That’s not your mortgage, that’s credit cards, personal loans, PCP etc. Pay it down as hard and fast as you can.
Secondly contribute to your work place pension and get the maximum employer match, that’s a free pay rise if you’re not already doing it.
Thirdly create a cash emergency fund. There’s a lot of debate in the community of what a sufficient emergency fund is. Some say three months worth of expenses, some say three years. No right or wrong answer, but have this in an easy access savings account.
Fourthly invest in low cost tracker funds. Vanguard FTSE global all cap index fund - accumulation is probably the most popular for those wanting FI. You get a bit of everything and - crucially - the fees are low. Fidelity and other companies offer similar funds though, the provider isn’t really important just avoid high fee financial advisers like St James’ Place etc.
That’s it, then you wait. The nuance is your savings rate and your annual expenses, and everyone is different in that respect. People talk about fat fi and lean fi. If you want luxury holidays and fancy cars post retirement you’ll need a bigger pot. If you’re happy living in a van and foraging berries you’ll hardly need anything. Naturally most people are somewhere in the middle.
Mr Money Moustache made a famous blog post more than ten years ago now - https://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/01/13/the-shockingly-simple-math-behind-early-retirement/ - it’s still regularly talked about and his table is broadly correct.

 

 

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, beefybake said:

Re:  "Conversely, the more people take up FIRE the more reduced spending will negatively impact the world economy and the harder FIRE will be to achieve... ".

Not really, you've fallen into the traditional economics focus on constantly increasing GDP as a measure of economic health.

Suggest you read around a bit on the subject of New Economics, for example 'Doughnut Economics' by Kate Raworth.  That's what a large chunk

of what Money Mustache, and the Vicki Robin book, are about, except their ways of expression are different to those of an economist, which is what Raworth does.

As said, Monevator is just about money. The other two have the recognition that we live in a world of finite natural resources, and that we must use them

wisely.

 

Some good links there, I'll try and keep the first post updated.

Doughnut economics sounds tasty, I'll add it to my list. But I do think it leads into a broader discussion of moving away from a society that priorities economic growth to one that seeks a more balanced scorecard. This may sound pie in the sky but until recently companies only reported (and cared about) financial results - they certainly don't now. They consider diversity, sustainability and a wide range of stakeholders in their reporting. If companies can change, let's hope society as a whole moves away from the relentless search for profit or returns (with GDP supplanted as the primary measure for how countries are judged).

And that's also a segway into the anti work movement and universal basic income policies which are somewhat related to the desired outcomes of FIRE.

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

I find these discussions are for folk who earn decent wages. Yer man Satoshi talking earlier about how he never really changed much of his spending habits but has still the ability to save huge amounts that will allow him to retire at 55. I see videos of financially independent folks on youtube and it's always "take your paycheck and split it in half, put one half away. Then split what you have left and spend half". Thats fine if you're Kevin Hart or Shaq O'Neill and you can buy a new Ferrari with the wee bit you've got left but someone working in B&M on a zero hour contract probably wouldn't be able to eat if they did that with every paycheck. So I guess that's my question for supporters of this "community" - how does a poor c**t do this but live a healthy and enjoyable life? 

 

36 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

If you think someone on a minimum wage, zero hour contract can afford to put money towards a pension, an emergency fund and further investments from one paycheck then you're all but proving my point. This stuff is for people with disposable income. Which is fine, but some of it comes across as preachy and that everyone can just do it if they wanted to.

Perfectly valid criticism. And you can expand it beyond low wage earners. For most of the world population, a stable retirement at any age is a pipe dream. I'm not surprised tech bros talking about retiring at 30 rubs some people the wrong way.

I can only retireate what has already been posted, my first post didn't mention debt but this is a critical part of FIRE - for most people the priority should be on elimnating consumer debt (mortgage and student loans excluded). You shouldn't start investing until you have cleared your consumer debt.

The other option would be investing in yourself through training courses etc to increase the chances of getting into a higher income job, very much not available for everyone of course. And the Entrepreneurial Mindset stuff that everyone should throw themsleves into living their best life isn't my kind of thing at all.

And I generally agree on the preachy stuff, FIRE is no religion (at least in my mind) and I don't seek to convert people. I would have benefitted from learning about it earlier but I fully recognise for many people it won't be available (or even desireable). And that's fine, the basic principles of reducing your debt/spending and saving more should help everyone regardless of income level. But if you get anxiety from having money in your bank, sweating about all the cocaine and hookers that money could be turned into - go for it, do what makes you happy.

And for those who love their job and don't want to retire - even better. I quite like my job and will probably keep doing it once I reach my FIRE number but I would also like to maybe do some teaching or charity work, don't need to make the decision now but it would be nice to have the option.

From my experience, those involved in FIRE stratify pretty much all income levels. The goals and aspirations may change but the methods do not, one persons retiring at 40 could be anothers debt free in 3 years - both equally valid goals.

33 minutes ago, virginton said:

It's just an ideology designed to allow the privileged to claim that they pulled themselves up by their own hard work and sacrifice. It's as old as the hills; bourgeois Victorians were busy lapping up the same pish - with bonus Christian morality - in Samuel Smiles' Self Help. 

True, for a long time there was an idea that the richer you are the more leisure time you have but this has been inverted in the knowledge economy. Rich and successful people brag about how much they work and those with lower incomes have more normal lives and (typically) more leisure time.

I work in the corporate world, the idea of doing auditing or management consulting for 70 hours a week is revolting to me but fair play to those who do it. In my 40s and 50s (ideally with a family) I want to have the option to either do it or not whilst still being able to live a fairly comfortable lifestyle.

Edited March 15, 2022 by Satoshi

[coprolite]

As communities go, i think that scientologists and incels sound better than this one. 

[resk]

7 minutes ago, coprolite said:

As communities go, i think that scientologists and incels sound better than this one. 

I can't choose - I'll probably just join all three.  

[Detournement]

I'd be worrying everyday about the stock market melting down. 

f**k that.

[SuperSaints1877]

It’s not for everyone we get that.
 

We are striving for financial independence. It gives my wife and I the freedom to choose where we travel, how we travel and how long we wish to stay when we get there. The only reason we have not pulled the plug is that we have one kid left on the payroll. 

I’ve met many people who are on low incomes and use their spare cash on latest phones, Sky, cigarettes, drugs and alcohol.

I would not criticise their life choices. It’s their money and they are free to do what they want.

I prefer to invest my spare cash in the businesses of the world that make money even while I sleep.

I monitor all our finances once a month and keep track in a simple net worth spreadsheet. It takes all of 30mins to do once a month. Hardly difficult. 

If you can’t measure it you can’t manage it.

We are not involved in any “communities”. We don’t use any financial advisors. All the tools and knowledge are available online. It’s never been easier to invest. 

It’s all down to choice.

This thread has been started by an individual who is keen to share. If one person takes the first positive steps as a result it will be worth it.

 

[RH33]

AHH who had the "low incomes, sky and fags" on the hit the poor bingo?!

Edited March 15, 2022 by RH33

[Honest Saints Fan]

I'm going to die before I reach retirement age. I've got enough in life insurance policies etc for my family. Am I f**k saving the rest. 

[SuperSaints1877]

3 minutes ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

I'm going to die before I reach retirement age. 

I’m sorry to hear that. How long do you have left?

[coprolite]

7 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Do you not realise that this sounds like preachy bollocks?

In essence this is all very easy stuff - if you have spare money, save it. If you are spending on things you are happy to ditch then save that money too. If you do that for long enough you'll have a pot of money which will allow you to retire early and that could be weeks, months or years early depending on how much you save, how long you save for and where you've stuck that money.

It doesn't need all this jargon.

Not having a go specifically at you because others like @Satoshi and @Lex are much worse but you guys are making a very simple thing sounds like the most complicated thing to have ever been invented.

Apparently this requires gurus and their books. 

[Honest Saints Fan]

17 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

I’m sorry to hear that. How long do you have left?

I've no idea. I'm 3.5 years into an incurable cancer diagnosis. Average length of diagnosis to death about 10 years. That would make me 38. 

[SuperSaints1877]

10 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Fucking hell. Seriously? You're really asking that?

Yeah. He brought the subject up. 

Personally I would like to know myself when I’m gonna die. Surely makes things much easier to plan if you know your end date. Saves ordering that birthday card for the relative you don’t particularly like. 

I don’t know why dying is such a taboo subject. We are all going to one day. Have you never known someone with a terminal illness? 

We all might get nuked tomorrow for all we know.  

Fucking hell lighten up. We are all a long time dead.  
 

Edited March 15, 2022 by SuperSaints1877

[SuperSaints1877]

3 minutes ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

I've no idea. I'm 3.5 years into an incurable cancer diagnosis. Average length of diagnosis to death about 10 years. That would make me 38. 

Not good. Cancer is a b*****d. I’ve lost a few good friends early in life to cancer. I’ve also seen people get new treatments that put them in remission when they were told all was lost. I wish you the best. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by SuperSaints1877

[Honest Saints Fan]

4 minutes ago, SuperSaints1877 said:

Not good. Cancer is a b*****d. I’ve lost a few good friends early in life to cancer. I’ve also seen people get new treatments that put them in remission when they were told all was lost. I wish you the best. 

Thanks. There are new treatments coming out but they'll probably be too late for me. 

The diagnosis put life in perspective and made me realise that saving for the future was pointless. I spend what I want, treat my family to whatever they ask for. Its not going to the grave with me.

 

Edited March 15, 2022 by Honest Saints Fan

[Satoshi]

42 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I'd be worrying everyday about the stock market melting down. 

f**k that.

It will defintely melt down, if you're going to invest in ETFs you have to be prepared to lose 10-25% of your assets every so often. It's pretty much a certainty. As is it rebounding back. I think less than 10% of the worlds population has any investments - there is still a lot more climbing to do.

28 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

To be fair, if you're trying NOT to make this sound like a religious cult, you're going the wrong way about it. 

Oh and I think anyone who managed to plough through your entire post without slitting their wrists probably guessed you come from the corporate world.

Jeezo - those bits in bold, underline.... 

Do you disagree with what I said or how I said it? 

19 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Do you not realise that this sounds like preachy bollocks?

In essence this is all very easy stuff - if you have spare money, save it. If you are spending on things you are happy to ditch then save that money too. If you do that for long enough you'll have a pot of money which will allow you to retire early and that could be weeks, months or years early depending on how much you save, how long you save for and where you've stuck that money.

It doesn't need all this jargon.

Not having a go specifically at you because others like @Satoshi and @Lex are much worse but you guys are making a very simple thing sounds like the most complicated thing to have ever been invented.

It's not complicated at all, I don't know why you're struggling with it.

But fine, you don't like FIRE, or me, and you think it's all preachy bollocks. Great stuff, keep it up, these are all invaluable contributions.

9 minutes ago, coprolite said:

Apparently this requires gurus and their books. 

Not really, you can do as much (or as little) research as you want. The basics are simply pay off debt, save more, invest in low cost passive tracking ETFs. The rest can be helpful but you don't really have to spend your time (or money) diving any further into it.

[coprolite]

4 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

.

Not really, you can do as much (or as little) research as you want. The basics are simply pay off debt, save more, invest in low cost passive tracking ETFs. The rest can be helpful but you don't really have to spend your time (or money) diving any further into it.

This is analogous to that "eat fewer calories and exercise more" shite that gets bandied about. 

I know the theory....