Energy Prices

[Left Back]

8 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Mostly, although there are some suppliers left who aren't also generators - Octopus, I think.

Since, suppliers and generators are legally separated, a company could fairly easily wind up it's supply business and continue being a generator.

God knows what would happen if literally every supplier went bust. I'd imagine the government would have to step in and buy at least one or two to keep the system going.

They've already done that with Bulb

[HEY_SIDNEY]

45 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Can someone explain the outcome of refusing to increase the price cap? I assume the only companies left in the industry are those who also produce gas/electricity so should not be going bust with the profits on the other side. Governments should get together and do the same thing to remind the companies that they only make a profit when we buy the products.

It's clear two things need to be eradicated here; obscene producer profit and traders in essential services. 

No is the short answer to highlighted statement

Ovo are the only BIG company that aren't generators/producers but still have skin in the Retail side of things. The SP idea actually came from OVO but the SP chief is the one who put it forward at the meeting. If OVO are happy with it i would assume, rightly or wrongly, that they wouldn't do bust with a lockdown on price cap after Octobers increase.

The £100billion set aside would see them ok between the companies.

there may be smaller companies outside the big 6/7/8 but I couldn't tell u who they are.,

[Billy Jean King]

This is a good point and again won't be long before the Tory media jump on the "What do you expect working from home? Get back to the office!" bandwagon.

Our offices have already closed, no going back there and the few that did get to return have already been told they will be returning to a 2 day week hybrid model from 1 October as the few buildings left will be closed the remaining 3 days. There is very little slack left to take up after Covid.

[Billy Jean King]

No I don't agree. As I said the other day, any Government which threatens to permanently lower the standard of living because we must defend the likes of Ukraine will find themselves out on their arses ASAP and replaced by one which won't.

Tell me which one won't in the UK ?

[Alert Mongoose]

4 minutes ago, HEY_SIDNEY said:

No is the short answer to highlighted statement

Ovo are the only BIG company that aren't generators/producers but still have skin in the Retail side of things. The SP idea actually came from OVO but the SP chief is the one who put it forward at the meeting. If OVO are happy with it i would assume, rightly or wrongly, that they wouldn't do bust with a lockdown on price cap after Octobers increase.

The £100billion set aside would see them ok between the companies.

there may be smaller companies outside the big 6/7/8 but I couldn't tell u who they are.,

Sorry, I should point out I wasn't advocating putting the £100b into private hands from the public.  I was trying to ascertain how to starve the production side of the profits they are unnecessary making.  If governments work together there is a way to force them if you starve them of a supply market.

[101]

35 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Don't lower it below 70° though

Why's that, is that the minimum efficiency?

[strichener]

3 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

I note the April forecast is now above £7k with a kWh of electricity forecast to be 110p.

It's not a winter fuel crisis that needs addressing - it's a 24 month plus long crisis.

Targetted payments, Tax cuts, VAT reductions (i know it's also a tax), removing Green levvies etc won't touch the sides here.

I guarantee you the price cap will not reach £7k.  I note that you are posting near daily changes in the expected cap next year, which has nearly doubled since you started posting and yet somehow think that forecasts of longer term reductions in price are accurate.

There is going to be a very rapid recession hitting the western economies followed by a tanking of energy prices.  It is as sure as night follows day.

[resk]

Absolutely fantastic monologue / rant from Big Marty on the BBC news just there.  Is he at risk of a David Kelly / involuntary suicide situation?  

[Alert Mongoose]

1 minute ago, strichener said:

I note that you are posting near daily changes in the expected cap next year, 

Indeed he has which is remarkably similar to the behaviour of those he so vociferously attacked during the Covid period.  

[HEY_SIDNEY]

14 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Sorry, I should point out I wasn't advocating putting the £100b into private hands from the public.  I was trying to ascertain how to starve the production side of the profits they are unnecessary making.  If governments work together there is a way to force them if you starve them of a supply market.

Very interested why you want to starve, an already starving market. Unless I'm missing your point, it would probably push £200 billions into private hands.

[Left Back]

1 minute ago, 101 said:

Why's that, is that the minimum efficiency?

Most heating systems are designed using Delta T50 which basically means the flow temperature should be 50 degrees above the desired room temperature for maximum efficiency therefore in theory to heat the room to 20 degrees the most efficient temperature for the flow is 70 degrees.  Below that it may not heat the room if the radiators are exactly the size required to heat the room at Delta 50.

In practice most radiators are usually oversized so you could probably get away with a bit lower.  A bit of trial and error is usually required unless you want to do all the measurements and maths.

[Alert Mongoose]

4 minutes ago, HEY_SIDNEY said:

Very interested why you want to starve, an already starving market. Unless I'm missing your point, it would probably push £200 billions into private hands.

The £100b is already in the pocket of BP, Aramco etc. Every avenue should be explored to ensure that it clawed back to pay for the next months.

[Todd_is_God]

24 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

No I don't agree. As I said the other day, any Government which threatens to permanently lower the standard of living because we must defend the likes of Ukraine will find themselves out on their arses ASAP and replaced by one which won't.

Tell me which one won't in the UK ?

None at the moment, but that type of chat is ripe for increasing popularity of ultra right-wing parties.

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, 101 said:

Why's that, is that the minimum efficiency?

 

7 minutes ago, Left Back said:

Most heating systems are designed using Delta T50 which basically means the flow temperature should be 50 degrees above the desired room temperature for maximum efficiency therefore in theory to heat the room to 20 degrees the most efficient temperature for the flow is 70 degrees.  Below that it may not heat the room if the radiators are exactly the size required to heat the room at Delta 50.

In practice most radiators are usually oversized so you could probably get away with a bit lower.  A bit of trial and error is usually required unless you want to do all the measurements and maths.

There's also the risk of Legionella if you have a cylinder and don't heat the water enough.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, Alert Mongoose said:

Indeed he has which is remarkably similar to the behaviour of those he so vociferously attacked during the Covid period.  

What?

[Hawk89]

24 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

Mostly, although there are some suppliers left who aren't also generators - Octopus, I think.

Since, suppliers and generators are legally separated, a company could fairly easily wind up it's supply business and continue being a generator.

God knows what would happen if literally every supplier went bust. I'd imagine the government would have to step in and buy at least one or two to keep the system going.

Octopus seem to be trying to become generators on a small scale as they are hoovering up the domestic solar market as they have tariffs like Agile, which to my understanding is a ying/yang type thing where the rate you are paid for exporting energy changes daily. The Yang being if you have to buy in you are also paying the same rate back. They have partnered up with Tesla to start building solar networks in theory leading to lower energy prices as it is the export you are buying from other Octopus users. No doubt they'll be bought up at some point if it works as well as they claim. 

[Michael W]

33 minutes ago, strichener said:

There is going to be a very rapid recession hitting the western economies followed by a tanking of energy prices.  It is as sure as night follows day.

I am not sure that it will. Demand for energy will remain, though possibly be tempered by reduced industrial/commercial demand owing to recession. Unless the underlying factors causing the price to be as high as it is are addressed, there is no real option to simply sell it cheaper as suppliers will go bust. 

[Billy Jean King]

None at the moment, but that type of chat is ripe for increasing popularity of ultra right-wing parties.

So no it won't happen in the UK then, it will be one of the two with a possibility of a prop up by the Lib Dems.

The genie is so far out the bottle with Russia it's almost impossible to see it getting close to going back in. Reliance on Russian gas is over after this and to think all we need to do is magically end the war in Ukraine to put all this back the way it was is naive in the extreme. That conflict will end when it ends regardless of outcome but the current crisis is the here and now and it's that the Govt (yes the same govt that's help arming Ukraine) needs to deal with now. There is zero prospect of the war ending soon and even if it did it would make little difference given the current rises are due to Europe securing winter gas supplies at sky high prices so the costs for this next coming year at least are now pretty much baked in. It's simply a matter of what the new PM is going to do about it.

[Billy Jean King]

There's also the risk of Legionella if you have a cylinder and don't heat the water enough.

Surely there would need to be a major leak for Legionella in what is a sealed system to be a threat to humans from a radiator system.

[Todd_is_God]

4 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

It's simply a matter of what the new PM is going to do about it.

Freeze the Cap

Fracking

Delink electricity from the cost of gas

Burn coal

Moving away from dependency on Russian gas (the UK isn't that dependent on it anyway) is a good idea, but continuing to buy what is available when it is available will still be a thing, especially so after the war.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Todd_is_God