Todd_is_God Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, beefybake said: Actually, it's your views that are gormless, and the way you've manipulated what people have been saying is mendacious. If the energy companies were nationalised, there would be an immediate mechanism whereby a government could control the prices available to retail, and business customers. What there is right now is a failed 'free market' system, that's squealing to the government for a bail out. As in ' privatising the profits, socializing the losses'..., in it's own way, just like the banking crash of 2007/2008. As energy is a basic utility, it absolutely should never have been privatised. As for your first point(s), it's highly likely that the government will introduce a mechanism to control those prices. However this will cost money and will need to be recovered down the line. How is that any different to a renationalised energy supplier absorbing the (massive) losses from buying at wholesale cost and selling at a much reduced rate? Edited August 22, 2022 by Todd_is_God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 10 minutes ago, oaksoft said: I'm not sure @Todd_is_God's "appease the Russians so we can get cheaper gas" suggestion is a good look TBH. It's only "not a good look" because we short-sightedly waded in in the first place. The sanctions were supposed to force Russia to quickly back down, not set fire to our own economies. At some point, when it's clear that the former has failed and the impact on the latter becomes too great, something will need to give. Edited August 22, 2022 by Todd_is_God 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 52 minutes ago, beefybake said: Actually, it's your views that are gormless, and the way you've manipulated what people have been saying is mendacious. If the energy companies were nationalised, there would be an immediate mechanism whereby a government could control the prices available to retail, and business customers. What there is right now is a failed 'free market' system, that's squealing to the government for a bail out. As in ' privatising the profits, socializing the losses'..., in it's own way, just like the banking crash of 2007/2008. As energy is a basic utility, it absolutely should never have been privatised. Which energy companies are you proposing to nationalise? Retail or wholesale? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sophia Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 31 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said: It's only "not a good look" because we short-sightedly waded in in the first place. The sanctions were supposed to force Russia to quickly back down, not set fire to our own economies. At some point, when it's clear that the former has failed and the impact on the latter becomes too great, something will need to give. I've never known sanctions to have that effect so I'd be surprised if anyone was seriously promulgating such a view. As for persisting with the idea that we don't trade with a gangster, well I think that's most probably a good place to be. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 7 hours ago, sophia said: I've never known sanctions to have that effect so I'd be surprised if anyone was seriously promulgating such a view. As for persisting with the idea that we don't trade with a gangster, well I think that's most probably a good place to be. Looking forward to your stance being applied consistently towards China and Saudi Arabia (among others) then. After all, the complete disintegration of entire sectors of the economy is A Price Worth Paying* for an enhanced sense of self-righteousness. * in lives 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 (edited) 9 hours ago, oaksoft said: I'm not sure @Todd_is_God's "appease the Russians so we can get cheaper gas" suggestion is a good look TBH. Not declaring an utterly stupid economic war with your regional energy supplier ≠ 'appease' or 'appeasement'. Europe should not be reliant on Russian or any other power for its resource needs. Trying to undo a continent's energy market of forty years overnight because a guy in a khaki T shirt is crying about it produces severely damaging consequences though. And it will also lead to the governments that pledged solidarity with Ukraine collapsing like a house of cards and bringing more sympathetic voices to Putin into power. So it's not even a worthwhile policy from a geopolitical view. Edited August 23, 2022 by vikingTON 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 12 hours ago, Todd_is_God said: They are holding them back in response to sanctions. No reason why they would not be open in return for lifting sanctions and sending no more military aid to Ukraine. Would it not be more sensible for us to stop exporting or limit exports of gas until our winter demand was assured it's a hard question for continental Europe but that's their call. Putin isn't as straight forward as to see sanctions end and just reverse it all. I think it's very much a case of you've made you bed now lie in it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, 101 said: Would it not be more sensible for us to stop exporting or limit exports of gas until our winter demand was assured it's a hard question for continental Europe but that's their call. Putin isn't as straight forward as to see sanctions end and just reverse it all. I think it's very much a case of you've made you bed now lie in it. Two issues with that. We have limited locations to store gas in the UK so whatever comes out of the ground that we don't use has to be sent somewhere. Our gas storage facilities were wound down years ago. The government don't own the gas fields. They're owned by private companies who can do what they like with what they extract. They'll also have contracts in place to supply certain amounts to European countries. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 2 minutes ago, Left Back said: Two issues with that. We have limited locations to store gas in the UK so whatever comes out of the ground that we don't use has to be sent somewhere. Our gas storage facilities were wound down years ago. The government don't own the gas fields. They're owned by private companies who can do what they like with what they extract. They'll also have contracts in place to supply certain amounts to European countries. Reducing gas storage is criminally naive. This might be a daft question then, so does the Norwegian state own their gas fields in order to prioritise domestic supply during the winter? Or are they passing some legislation to make this possible? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, 101 said: Reducing gas storage is criminally naive. This might be a daft question then, so does the Norwegian state own their gas fields in order to prioritise domestic supply during the winter? Or are they passing some legislation to make this possible? The state owns them but Norway uses very little gas anyway. They moved to renewables years ago. Almost all their oil & gas is sold abroad (some of it to us during the winter) https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19716393.actually-happened-scotlands-trillions-north-sea-oil-boom/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
101 Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 9 minutes ago, Left Back said: The state owns them but Norway uses very little gas anyway. They moved to renewables years ago. Almost all their oil & gas is sold abroad (some of it to us during the winter) https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/19716393.actually-happened-scotlands-trillions-north-sea-oil-boom/ A classic case of "here's what you could have won" oh well. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee Bully Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 6 minutes ago, oaksoft said: Not really. They are still seeing large increases in energy bills. What increases are they seeing, and how does that compare to us? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Left Back Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 5 minutes ago, Wee Bully said: What increases are they seeing, and how does that compare to us? Don't know any specific figures about price increases to the consumer in Norway but they're in a spot of bother for a different reason. https://www.ft.com/content/99b698e9-5a82-4988-9d4c-f76ba63564eb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
54_and_counting Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 12 hours ago, beefybake said: Actually, it's your views that are gormless, and the way you've manipulated what people have been saying is mendacious. If the energy companies were nationalised, there would be an immediate mechanism whereby a government could control the prices available to retail, and business customers. What there is right now is a failed 'free market' system, that's squealing to the government for a bail out. As in ' privatising the profits, socializing the losses'..., in it's own way, just like the banking crash of 2007/2008. As energy is a basic utility, it absolutely should never have been privatised. You do realise for the government to nationalise the energy sector to an extent that the public can benefit from low costs, it would either need to nationalise the actual companies that supply the gas to our energy companies (never going to happen) or take over the energy suppliers that we use, drop the prices to an affordable level, then use our taxes to make up the losses that these companies will inevitably make 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurkst Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 13 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said: get the price of renewable electricity fucking well unpegged from the price of gas would be a start you facking cahnts Yeah, why do they have to be linked? Folk that don't even use gas are still paying a fortune. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said: You do realise for the government to nationalise the energy sector to an extent that the public can benefit from low costs, it would either need to nationalise the actual companies that supply the gas to our energy companies (never going to happen) or take over the energy suppliers that we use, drop the prices to an affordable level, then use our taxes to make up the losses that these companies will inevitably make There are billions in profit, bonuses and corporate ineffiencies that can be handed back to consumers before anyone starts to make a loss. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clown Job Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 3 hours ago, oaksoft said: It would require a global crackdown from all governments working together. Which is not going to happen because US energy corporations are happily leeching Europe's wealth away, in exchange for meeting the shortfall. That 'ending energy dependence on another geopolitical power' principle in action! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detournement Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, virginton said: Which is not going to happen because US energy corporations are happily leeching Europe's wealth away, in exchange for meeting the shortfall. That 'ending energy dependence on another geopolitical power' principle in action! This entire year has been a shitshow but watching German politicians deliberately destroying their own economy has been the craziest part. I'm sure there won't be any serious consequences resulting from it though as Germans are notoriously relaxed about things like that..... Edited August 23, 2022 by Detournement 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted August 23, 2022 Share Posted August 23, 2022 Which Eurozone country will be the first to blink? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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