Energy Prices

[Granny Danger]

6 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Numbers being quoted for winter are genuinely frightening. 

This is not normal and not a case of folk just tightening their belts to get through it. It is outrageous that we’re basically just running without a government while this fucking circus of a leadership race goes on. 

Yip.  One of the worst domestic financial crises in decades and the U.K. government is AWOL.

[HEY_SIDNEY]

29 minutes ago, Left Back said:

The problem a lot of people will have with this is it will be jacked up to an unaffordable level and there's pretty much sod all you can do about it with some companies.  As long as they give you enough notice they can change the amount.  I'm lucky with my provider that I can go into my online account and set the amount to be whatever I deem is appropriate.  A lot of people can't do that so to stop their energy company taking £300/£400 out their bank every month there only option is to cancel the DD.  Even leaving aside providers taking the piss and using customers as a credit card what would be a "fair" direct debit if the typical bill gets to £4k per annum is simply out of reach for some people.

Companies have internal 'policies' in place where consumers cannot reduce by say 10/15/20% as per their guidelines etc. Some companies will have an escalation process where if you get to the correct 'level' of person then you can set it at what is affordable. Key word is affordable.

There will be that company who just flat refuse to change it. There is an element of future planning within that reasoning but unfortunately these advisors are not trained well enough to understand empathy or sympathy. So understanding a customers needs or wants and are beyond their skill set. They read verbatim from the policy and have no wiggle room to do the right thing.

Thats where escalation process usually comes in handy, or a retentions department type thing.

Anyway, the increase announced is a nonsense and extremely worrying for the winter.

[Clown Job]

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Numbers being quoted for winter are genuinely frightening. 

This is not normal and not a case of folk just tightening their belts to get through it. It is outrageous that we’re basically just running without a government while this fucking circus of a leadership race goes on. 

It's mental. An average household cost of £355 per month or thereabouts. Folk in low wage jobs/zero hour contracts are basically going to be seeing their income be swallowed up just on fuel bills, before we even get to food costs, other utilities etc, and yet we have that fucking cretin Truss saying NO MORE HANDOUTS, even if she becomes PM, next month, THEN has to form a cabinet to THEN put policies in place. The UK is an utter fucking binfire. 

 

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

It's mental. An average household cost of £355 per month or thereabouts. Folk in low wage jobs/zero hour contracts are basically going to be seeing their income be swallowed up just on fuel bills, before we even get to food costs, other utilities etc, and yet we have that fucking cretin Truss saying NO MORE HANDOUTS, even if she becomes PM, next month, THEN has to form a cabinet to THEN put policies in place. The UK is an utter fucking binfire. 

 

Yep, and you’ve got Boris who fought tooth and nail to stay on as PM while this went on doing absolutely f**k all and saying ‘not my problem’ when asked about it. He should’ve been forcibly removed immediately. 

[Todd_is_God]

59 minutes ago, Day of the Lords said:

It's mental. An average household cost of £355 per month or thereabouts. Folk in low wage jobs/zero hour contracts are basically going to be seeing their income be swallowed up just on fuel bills, before we even get to food costs, other utilities etc, and yet we have that fucking cretin Truss saying NO MORE HANDOUTS, even if she becomes PM, next month, THEN has to form a cabinet to THEN put policies in place. The UK is an utter fucking binfire. 

Further handouts will only mask the problem, though, aren't sustainable, and almost certainly will do nothing to support those who do not currently receive any other benefits.

They need to be coming up with a way to claw back money from the massive profits that are currently being made by companies involved in Gas supply to allow the Price Cap to be forced down to lower bills across the board. Alternatively, they could achieve similar by dictating that the price cap cannot rise above a certain amount. Ultimately, given their recent profit press releases, these energy companies are not going to fail if their profits increase by less.

Otherwise all we are going to end up with a situation where millions simply cannot pay their bills, and millions more can just about keep themselves afloat for the next 18-24 months but in doing so will have no money left to do anything else meaning those businesses that aren't forced to close because of their own energy bills fail anyway because few people can afford to use them.

The problem is far too complex to be solved during a party leadership contest, and certainly isn't as black and white as Handouts vs Tax Cuts. And, similiarly, staunchly relying on something which wasn't really designed to deal with the current landscape makes no sense.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Shadow Play]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Further handouts will only mask the problem, though, aren't sustainable, and almost certainly will do nothing to support those who do not currently receive any other benefits.

They need to be coming up with a way to claw back money from the massive profits that are currently being made by companies involved in Gas supply to allow the Price Cap to be forced down to lower bills across the board.

Otherwise all we are going to end up with a situation where millions simply cannot pay their bills, and millions more can just about keep themselves afloat for the next 18-24 months but in doing so will have no money left to do anything else meaning those businesses that aren't forced to close because of their own energy bills fail anyway because few people can afford to use them.

The problem is far too complex to be solved during a party leadership contest, and certainly isn't as black and white as Handouts vs Tax Cuts.

Fair points, well made TiG.

What are you thoughts with how this will develop beyond the 2 years or so of publicly anticipated high prices?

I reckon the high price of gas will last an awful lot longer than they are willing to admit.  The increase in the world’s population and a higher % of the world’s population now wanting to live in the relative comfort we have grown accustomed to will mean the demand for gas will probably increase.

In addition certain governments appear determined to prevent new gas fields being developed which will mean less gas being available over time.

Will green energy develop fast enough to make the above points irrelevant?

 

 

 

[Todd_is_God]

6 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

What are you thoughts with how this will develop beyond the 2 years or so of publicly anticipated high prices?

Genuinely no idea tbh. In an ideal world, the cessation of hostilities in Ukraine, followed by a lifting of sanctions on Russian gas would lead to the availability of gas being so high the price of it crashes.

I don't see how it comes back down anytime soon otherwise.

[Hedgecutter]

9 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Will green energy develop fast enough to make the above points irrelevant?

No, which was always the danger of committing to targets that relied on technologies that are yet to exist.  Made for some good sound bites though.

[Todd_is_God]

Just now, Hedgecutter said:

No, which was always the danger of committing to targets that relied on technologies that are yet to exist.  Made for some good sound bites though.

See also the ban on ICE cars by 2030, and gas fuelled boilers by 2035.

Great sounding policies implemented by Governments before either the infrastructure or viable alternative was in place, knowing full well they won't be around by then to face the consequences of going through with them / missing the target.

[mizfit]

When do we start burning the businesses they Tory b*****ds in government are investing in? 
 

[HEY_SIDNEY]

9 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Genuinely no idea tbh. In an ideal world, the cessation of hostilities in Ukraine, followed by a lifting of sanctions on Russian gas would lead to the availability of gas being so high the price of it crashes.

I don't see how it comes back down anytime soon otherwise.

I think the Russian problems with Ukraine play a part, a huge part no doubt. Problems arise from their sheer distain for selling it at the same levels as before.
Norway have committed to trying to take over from Russia, on the pretence that Europe commits to buying. (Not sure why they wouldn't - jut not sure how sustainable the model would be)

"Russia delivered less gas to Europe last week, in a further escalation of an energy stand off between Moscow and the EU that makes it harder, and costlier, for the bloc to fill up storage ahead of the winter heating season. The Cut in supplies... has reduced the capacity of Nord Stream 1 to a mere fifth of is capability/capacity"

Also add in to it that theres no signs of Nord Stream 2 being/approved for use it doesnt bode well for gas transportation and reducing costs.

[Detournement]

Watching and reading the coverage of this is maddening. The media constantly link wage increases, inflation and energy prices yet they don't explain why because it's a pile of pish. 

As for the long term we are all going to be trained up to use less energy by economic shock therapy with no regard for how this will impact those on lower incomes. Heating will become a privilege and it's going to become normal to do things like turning your WiFi off if your not using it. Stuff like hot tubs in the garden, big fridges and Christmas lights will become far less common. We obviously need to bring down our carbon footprint but doing it this way is going to destroy so many people on low incomes.

Then you have the BoE simultaneously saying they intend to cause a recession which should give the game away even to the most credulous. Economic shock therapy has been used in South America, in Eastern Europe and the former USSR and in SE Asia, now it's coming to Europe because the super rich want to keep accumulating wealth in a post growth era so it has to come directly from workers here. 

[Honest_Man#1]

52 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

They need to be coming up with a way to claw back money from the massive profits that are currently being made by companies involved in Gas supply to allow the Price Cap to be forced down to lower bills across the board.

I have no idea about the mechanics of it, but what is there that stops the government doing this? Why can’t they just stop raising the price cap to bonkers levels and push the cost onto the massive profits of the energy companies? Is it just a worry that they would stop providing domestic energy if it wasn’t as profitable?

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

I have no idea about the mechanics of it, but what is there that stops the government doing this? Why can’t they just stop raising the price cap to bonkers levels and push the cost onto the massive profits of the energy companies? Is it just a worry that they would stop providing domestic energy if it wasn’t as profitable?

The Government doesn't actually set the price cap (something often ignored by people on social media) - it's merely a formula based on the average wholesale price over the previous six (soon to be three) months. I've no idea how, or if, this can be changed.

As for taxing the profits, others have pointed out that the companies themselves would play with the figures to help write off chunks of their tax liabilities by investing more into renewable energy.

[Detournement]

9 minutes ago, Honest_Man#1 said:

I have no idea about the mechanics of it, but what is there that stops the government doing this? Why can’t they just stop raising the price cap to bonkers levels and push the cost onto the massive profits of the energy companies? 

Because all the big parties in the UK are subservient to the people who profit hugely from energy company revenues. 

 

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

The Government doesn't actually set the price cap (something often ignored by people on social media) - it's merely a formula based on the average wholesale price over the previous six (soon to be three) months. I've no idea how, or if, this can be changed.

As for taxing the profits, others have pointed out that the companies themselves would play with the figures to help write off chunks of their tax liabilities by investing more into renewable energy.

Of course the government set the price cap! 

There is nothing stopping the government putting a limit on the cost of energy produced in the UK other than they don't want to. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Detournement

[Todd_is_God]

13 minutes ago, Detournement said:

Of course the government set the price cap! 

There is nothing stopping the government putting a limit on the cost of energy produced in the UK or imported to other than they don't want to. 

What I meant is that it's not like they are sitting round a table deciding when prices are increasing and to what level.

It's been an automatic process since 2018.

I've genuinely no idea what power the PM has to override that formula.

It's also worth noting that the Price Cap legislation, in its current form anyway, is due to expire at the end of 2023. The Gov did say they intended to extend it, but haven't actually done so yet.

Edited August 9, 2022 by Todd_is_God

[Detournement]

5 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

What I meant is that it's not like they are sitting round a table deciding when prices are increasing and to what level.

It's been an automatic process since 2018.

I've genuinely no idea what power the PM has to override that formula.

It's also worth noting that the Price Cap legislation, in its current form anyway, is due to expire at the end of 2023.

 

The government gave Ofgem the authority to set the cap and they will be able to take it directly under their control even without new primary legislation. If they don't do so it's an active decision. 

As we saw during the pandemic there are very few limits to the government's powers in the UK. 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Detournement

[mizfit]

Scottish Power had a protest today. Small scale but I can see this happening more often