Energy Prices

[Todd_is_God]

31 minutes ago, virginton said:

Changing SIM only phone suppliers is practically no hassle at all now. I'm on just under a tenner a month with Plusnet, but will probably threaten to patch them for the even cheaper options in the future. If they come back with a price reduction or substantially larger data, then all the better. 

Anyone who is still paying £25-30 a month for a phone in the current market is missing an open goal. Broadband is also happily reducing in price/increasing in quality over time. 

I have a SIM only contract. It's £11pm.

My Broadband comes with my TV Package.

For UW to be of any use you'd need to be out of contract on your phone, broadband, tv package and energy all the same time, and then sign up to contracts with them for all of the above which are not necessarily all the same length.

Its a faff.

[Todd_is_God]

31 minutes ago, Darren said:

I checked under medium usage because we're getting a wood burner installed and will be a lot more sensible with our usage generally this winter. So I'd imagine we'd end up in credit at their given price.

"Medium" means nothing. Check the actual units.

There's absolutely no way they are going to be £80pm under the price cap with a fixed price deal.

Manually enter KWh for both gas and electric equal to the average usage (or enter the estimates they suggest for "medium" on a comparison site and you'll see if it is actually cheaper and by how much.

[Darren]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

"Medium" means nothing. Check the actual units.

There's absolutely no way they are going to be £80pm under the price cap with a fixed price deal.

Manually enter KWh for both gas and electric equal to the average usage (or enter the estimates they suggest for "medium" on a comparison site and you'll see if it is actually cheaper and by how much.

I did it for our current usage and it was still working out cheaper.

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, strichener said:

How many people are there that don't understand the basic concept of unit price in utilities.

It doesn't matter one iota what monthly DD or fixed payment you are offered.  The only three things that matter are the unit price and the units used plus the standing charge.

Fixed rate tariffs fix the unit price on the energy? 

[Todd_is_God]

5 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Fixed rate tariffs fix the unit price on the energy? 

Yes they do. But what the big increase in April highlighted was the frighteningly high number of people who thought their actual number of units used wasn't relevant as they were "£x per month" regardless.

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

I think it's a huge number who confuse the two things.

Part of this is historical - a lot of people can't be arsed with the arithmetic of it all.

And the other part is that up till now the direct debits haven't been unsustainably high.

IMO most people probably just don't know how to calculate what their direct debit should be based on their usage in any one month and are not in a position to challenge their supplier.

Years ago, when I moved into my first flat a guy chapped the door offering £30 to switch to whatever power company he was working for. Ta very much said I.  At that time I had no idea there were different prices for power offered by the different companies.  I’d never had to pay a utility bill in my life

[Dons_1988]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

Yes they do. But what the big increase in April highlighted was the frighteningly high number of people who thought their actual number of units used wasn't relevant as they were "£x per month" regardless.

I see, think I misunderstood because he used the term ‘fixed payment’. 

[strichener]

30 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I see, think I misunderstood because he used the term ‘fixed payment’. 

In the context of your DD, even with a fixed rate deal your bill is not fixed as the usage is still variable.

[Dons_1988]

1 minute ago, strichener said:

In the context of your DD, even with a fixed rate deal your bill is not fixed as the usage is still variable.

I’m well aware of that, but thank you. 

[Hedgecutter]

3 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

Good move.  We had a wood burner installed a few years ago.  We still put the GCH on in the winter but we turn the thermostatic valves right down on the two radiators in the lounge and we also find we not running the GCH for quite so many hours.  

Quite apart from any moderate savings, a good fire in the wood burner is actually quite relaxing to sit beside on a cold night.

Splitting sticks (picked up from the remnants of cut down forests out and sbout) also makes for half decent exercise.  Also, few things feel more manly than hitting the sweet spot with a splitting axe, making the two halves fly apart at speed*.  That and having a pile of one's handywork on display. 

*Except when one half smacks off your shin of course.  Shin guards wouldn't be a terrible idea come to think of it.

[Left Back]

57 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

Splitting sticks (picked up from the remnants of cut down forests out and sbout) also makes for half decent exercise.  Also, few things feel more manly than hitting the sweet spot with a splitting axe, making the two halves fly apart at speed*.  That and having a pile of one's handywork on display. 

*Except when one half smacks off your shin of course.  Shin guards wouldn't be a terrible idea come to think of it.

Are you mental?  Using a chainsaw to portion up a fallen tree is manly.  Manually splitting wood is Victorian.

[Left Back]

12 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

Getting a wood burning stove installed is actually not a bad call.

Been wanting one for ages and this might be the time to go ahead and do it.

At less than £3k it should pay for itself fairly quickly.

Not sure you’ll get a decent one for £3k.  
 

ETA we had one put in in the spring.  Some of the quotes we got were mental.  £6-7k supplied and fitted.  Eventually found a one man band that did it for about £4k.  By the time you pay for the stove, then the flue, then the hearth it soon adds up. Cowboy installers try and sting you for everything apart from the actual stove.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Left Back

[Clown Job]

Basically go f**k yourselves 

We know exactly who the tax cuts are going to help the most….

[Pens_Dark]

1 hour ago, Clown Job said:

Basically go f**k yourselves 

We know exactly who the tax cuts are going to help the most….

She really is a deplorable individual. 

[Satoshi]

14 hours ago, oaksoft said:

No matter what the subject matter being discussed, you'll always find someone on either side of the argument playing the "moral" card.

The thing about car leasing in the context of this thread is simply about judging the risk of whether your finances are robust enough to deal with any financial shocks such as redundancy, pregnancy, illness, price rises or whatever.

@Left Back talked about making the balloon payment but in the context of price rises, there will almost certainly be some who don't have that lump sum and who are tied into several years of car payments which were once comfortably affordable but perhaps now aren't and they can't get out of. I don't know how many will be in this position but it will be some.

I'm not sure I follow you on the "crap asset to own" argument. If you own your car you'll have paid a certain amount. After 4 years it will have devalued but you'll own a car in decent condition if you've looked after it. If you rent the same car, you'll pay substantially more by the time you've paid the rent, the balloon payment and any excess mileage. The car will be in the same condition. It seems to me that the decision is more about whether you want to continually have a new car and are prepared to pay a premium each month to get it and that involves handing the car back and continuing with a new financial deal on another new car. I might be missing something here on the financial side and if so, let me know.

There's nothing moral about the subject, but your tone certainly is. And you're not the only person to do this. And it's just a bit odd, people don't mind others buying things on credit but do mind if they get a 'better' car than they otherwise should be able to afford. It's weird and it's definitely moralistic.

And it's a crap asset to own because of the rate at which it depreciates, there's a reason why the saying is own appreciating assets and rent / lease depreciating ones. Ignoring financing for a second (the car sales industry is all about financing, the product itself is almost peripheral), if you have £10,000 it most cases it would be better to invest £9000 in the stock market and lease a car than spend £10,000 on the car and sell down the line for far less. Your stock market cash will likely have appreciated far more. Not in every case, but in most cases.

For various reasons I actually bought a new car earlier this year (which I never thought I would do) but leasing / renting was my preference, just not very good deals where I am located. The car has been my best performing asset this year, not because it's a good asset, but because everything else crashed. (In that sense it's at least good diversification).

It is very much circumstance dependent, for many people buying a car is the best option, for many others leasing is (or straight up not having a car). Leasing exists as a product for a reason, and it's odd the moralistic objection people have to it.

 

[effeffsee_the2nd]

1 hour ago, Satoshi said:

There's nothing moral about the subject, but your tone certainly is. And you're not the only person to do this. And it's just a bit odd, people don't mind others buying things on credit but do mind if they get a 'better' car than they otherwise should be able to afford. It's weird and it's definitely moralistic.

And it's a crap asset to own because of the rate at which it depreciates, there's a reason why the saying is own appreciating assets and rent / lease depreciating ones. Ignoring financing for a second (the car sales industry is all about financing, the product itself is almost peripheral), if you have £10,000 it most cases it would be better to invest £9000 in the stock market and lease a car than spend £10,000 on the car and sell down the line for far less. Your stock market cash will likely have appreciated far more. Not in every case, but in most cases.

For various reasons I actually bought a new car earlier this year (which I never thought I would do) but leasing / renting was my preference, just not very good deals where I am located. The car has been my best performing asset this year, not because it's a good asset, but because everything else crashed. (In that sense it's at least good diversification).

It is very much circumstance dependent, for many people buying a car is the best option, for many others leasing is (or straight up not having a car). Leasing exists as a product for a reason, and it's odd the moralistic objection people have to it.

 

i'll be honest and say i'd never thought about a car like that before. i always looked at them as more like an appliance than anything else, sure the value goes down as you rack up miles and wear out parts but you pay to have the thing so you can drive it about. other things that cost a reasonable amount of money - fridge-freezers, washing machines, boilers etc all of them are fairly infrequent purchases but they don't last forever and most people would expect little or zero re sale value when your done with them. cars are just same if you think about it

[Satoshi]

4 hours ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

i'll be honest and say i'd never thought about a car like that before. i always looked at them as more like an appliance than anything else, sure the value goes down as you rack up miles and wear out parts but you pay to have the thing so you can drive it about. other things that cost a reasonable amount of money - fridge-freezers, washing machines, boilers etc all of them are fairly infrequent purchases but they don't last forever and most people would expect little or zero re sale value when your done with them. cars are just same if you think about it

It's a side discussion but my car (like most others) spends 99.9% of its life doing nothing. It's incredibly inefficient and I would love a world when there are less cars and more people are using public transport. City centres are much nicer without cars.

Self driving cars and ride hailing apps with hopefully continue to expand and become near ubiquitous in my lifetime. I would happily never own a car again (not an option in some locations sadly, including where I currently live).

It's not just cars of course, the average power drill is only on for 2 minutes in its entire lifetime, it clearly could and should be shared as part of a community or neighborhood scheme. Consumerism brings so much waste, we would need 8 planets worth of resources if everyone lived like the average American. So far we only manage because most of the world is pretty poor - 80% of the worlds population has ever been on a plane before.

Those fortunate to have access to consumerism should try and make some difference where we can.

[vikingTON]

4 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

It's a side discussion but my car (like most others) spends 99.9% of its life doing nothing. It's incredibly inefficient and I would love a world when there are less cars and more people are using public transport. City centres are much nicer without cars.

Self driving cars and ride hailing apps with hopefully continue to expand and become near ubiquitous in my lifetime. I would happily never own a car again (not an option in some locations sadly, including where I currently live).

It's not just cars of course, the average power drill is only on for 2 minutes in its entire lifetime, it clearly could and should be shared as part of a community or neighborhood scheme. Consumerism brings so much waste, we would need 8 planets worth of resources if everyone lived like the average American. So far we only manage because most of the world is pretty poor - 80% of the worlds population has ever been on a plane before.

Those fortunate to have access to consumerism should try and make some difference where we can.

Couldn't agree more. There's an organisation that already provides car-sharing in Glasgow that has received a good press, but I don't know whether their deal stands up to the alternatives yet:

https://www.co-wheels.org.uk/glasgow

It has to be the way forward and perhaps this price shock will have the silver lining of breaking old habits of personal ownership. 

Edited August 6, 2022 by vikingTON

[hk blues]

5 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

It's a side discussion but my car (like most others) spends 99.9% of its life doing nothing. It's incredibly inefficient and I would love a world when there are less cars and more people are using public transport. City centres are much nicer without cars.

Self driving cars and ride hailing apps with hopefully continue to expand and become near ubiquitous in my lifetime. I would happily never own a car again (not an option in some locations sadly, including where I currently live).

It's not just cars of course, the average power drill is only on for 2 minutes in its entire lifetime, it clearly could and should be shared as part of a community or neighborhood scheme. Consumerism brings so much waste, we would need 8 planets worth of resources if everyone lived like the average American. So far we only manage because most of the world is pretty poor - 80% of the worlds population has ever been on a plane before.

Those fortunate to have access to consumerism should try and make some difference where we can.

We'd also need a fair bit of underpinning.

[Left Back]

5 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

It's a side discussion but my car (like most others) spends 99.9% of its life doing nothing. It's incredibly inefficient and I would love a world when there are less cars and more people are using public transport. City centres are much nicer without cars.

Self driving cars and ride hailing apps with hopefully continue to expand and become near ubiquitous in my lifetime. I would happily never own a car again (not an option in some locations sadly, including where I currently live).

It's not just cars of course, the average power drill is only on for 2 minutes in its entire lifetime, it clearly could and should be shared as part of a community or neighborhood scheme. Consumerism brings so much waste, we would need 8 planets worth of resources if everyone lived like the average American. So far we only manage because most of the world is pretty poor - 80% of the worlds population has ever been on a plane before.

Those fortunate to have access to consumerism should try and make some difference where we can.

 

1 minute ago, virginton said:

Couldn't agree more. There's an organisation that provides car-sharing in Glasgow that has received a good press, but I don't know whether their deal stands up to the alternatives yet:

https://www.co-wheels.org.uk/glasgow

It has to be the way forward and perhaps this price shock will have the silver lining of breaking old habits of personal ownership. 

Isn’t that what that great reset lunatic has been banging on about?  Everything is part of a global conspiracy to ensure your average punter owns nothing?