DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Kissinger and the gang illegally flattened Cambodia while losing a war fifty years ago, and yet there's no sign of him at The Hague yet. Whataboutery as ever from the failed historian. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Given superb Ukrainian trolling so far, I'm surprised they haven't declared a cheeky annexation of Kaliningrad or something. I mean it's sitting there begging for it.The Czechs have already done that:https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-06/putin-s-land-grab-mocked-by-czechs-with-fake-kaliningrad-claim 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said: 59 minutes ago, virginton said: Whataboutery as ever from the failed historian. Well no, it's quite clearly relevant to the discussion of war crimes case - that this doesn't actually happen to any significant state or its leadership. Do you even know what whataboutery means? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 25 minutes ago, virginton said: Well no, it's quite clearly relevant to the discussion of war crimes case - that this doesn't actually happen to any significant state or its leadership. Do you even know what whataboutery means? Whoops, you just made my point. The Russians lose here, Putin is undoubtably out, and the replacements will drag all his cronies to The Hague for us…Putin won’t make it, he’ll be, conveniently, dead. In Cambodia, the U.S. didn’t really win or lose in the conventional sense, but also didn’t suffer any changes at the top levels that would result in anyone facing the chop. As a superpower, much like the Russian war crimes in Afghanistan in the 80’s, the Vietnam and Cambodia/Laos events were simply brushed under the rug. Russia no longer has that power. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 4 minutes ago, TxRover said: The Russians lose here, Putin is undoubtably out, and the replacements will drag all his cronies to The Hague for us… There is zero chance of that happening, just as in the case of American war criminals. The way it's looking at the moment is Putin's replacement will be even more hard line but if a more liberal leader emerges it would be suicide for him to deport any Russians to be tried in a NATO country. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 19 minutes ago, welshbairn said: There is zero chance of that happening, just as in the case of American war criminals. The way it's looking at the moment is Putin's replacement will be even more hard line but if a more liberal leader emerges it would be suicide for him to deport any Russians to be tried in a NATO country. Disagree. I suspect the end result will be a military coup of some sort, with Putin’s favorite private sector soldiers and oligarchs tossed to the Court, along with a few lower level soldiers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 I don't think Putin will be overthrown. BUT If he is I very much doubt that his successor will be taking anyone involved in this to the Hague. All the senior commanders in the Russian armed forces will be implicated in stuff like this, pretty much all the senior intelligence people and those in government. It isn't going to be like Serbia following the wars there where the regime is turfed out and replaced by their opponents, who, eventually, sent the guilty men to a war crimes trial. There simply isn't an opposition in Russia to slot in and take over the government. If Putin was deposed I'd expect he would be pensioned off somwhere 'guarded' to make sure he doesn't cause any trouble or more brutally, he is killed during the coup. But I don't think he will be overthrown though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 2 minutes ago, TxRover said: Disagree. I suspect the end result will be a military coup of some sort, with Putin’s favorite private sector soldiers and oligarchs tossed to the Court, along with a few lower level soldiers. Why would they send them to the Hague when they've plenty jails, bullets and handpicked judges of their own? Putin's still far more popular than just about every Western leader and the electorate are overwhelmingly on the nationalistic side of things. If and when Putin gets overthrown or dies there will be a reshuffling of the decks but money and power will remain in mostly the same hands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Just now, welshbairn said: Why would they send them to the Hague when they've plenty jails, bullets and handpicked judges of their own? Putin's still far more popular than just about every Western leader and the electorate are overwhelmingly on the nationalistic side of things. If and when Putin gets overthrown or dies there will be a reshuffling of the decks but money and power will remain in mostly the same hands. I just have a sneaking suspicion that the military aren’t enjoying this war very much. The mercenaries and various cronies would be a lovely target to offer up to get the world off Russias back, especially since poor old Vlad suffered Excedrin headache number .357. A nice military junta “restores” order and away we go… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Video of a destruction of a Russian artillery column, seemingly by HIMARS using new more deadly warheads. The previous use of HIMARS was to attack ammo dumps and command posts, it seems they are now being used against Russian troops directly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 41 minutes ago, TxRover said: Whoops, you just made my point. The Russians lose here, Putin is undoubtably out, and the replacements will drag all his cronies to The Hague for us…Putin won’t make it, he’ll be, conveniently, dead. In Cambodia, the U.S. didn’t really win or lose in the conventional sense, but also didn’t suffer any changes at the top levels that would result in anyone facing the chop. As a superpower, much like the Russian war crimes in Afghanistan in the 80’s, the Vietnam and Cambodia/Laos events were simply brushed under the rug. Russia no longer has that power. The US unquestionably lost its war in south-east Asia and none of its leaders - civilian or military - were ever packed off to The Hague to answer war crimes charges for it. There is absolutely zero prospect of it happening to any Russian leader today either. And leaving aside the power politics issue for a moment, it wouldn't stack up on the merits alone. The conflict has been conducted in a *relatively* legitimate manner so far by the standards of any serious conflict. The prospect of escalation and marked divergence from that pattern is still a distinct reality though. This just another case of pointless noise and fury on Twitter, which is presumably where your 'next stop: Turkey!' hot take came from as well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 16 minutes ago, TxRover said: I just have a sneaking suspicion that the military aren’t enjoying this war very much. The mercenaries and various cronies would be a lovely target to offer up to get the world off Russias back, especially since poor old Vlad suffered Excedrin headache number .357. A nice military junta “restores” order and away we go… Only an utter imbecile would welcome a military junta taking control of a nuclear superpower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) Russia doesn't extradite its own citizens. Unless that changes or Putin is captured and forcibly transported to the The Hague, it won't be happening. The possibility of either outcome seems unlikely to say the least, with the latter looking more akin to something out of a video game. At best, you will end up with a list of parties that might be charged and taken to The Hague if they are daft enough to leave Russia and travel to a country that will arrest them on arrival. Edited October 10, 2022 by Michael W 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TxRover Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 7 minutes ago, virginton said: Only an utter imbecile would welcome a military junta taking control of a nuclear superpower. Only a self important buffoon would interpret that posting as welcoming a military junta in Russia. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 (edited) If Putin and his backers get overthrown it will be because he allowed half of Russia's GDP to leach abroad during his rule instead of maintaining and developing Russia's military power and industrial infrastructure. The money he seized from the likes of Khodorkovsky just went into the hands of his old KGB pals and criminal associates instead, palaces and superyachts under different ownership. Edited October 10, 2022 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ginaro Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 Now I'm no a railway expert but I don't think the track is supposed to look like that... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 The Russian ruling clique are largely based round ex KGB people who worked with the mafia to gain power in the mid to late 90s. They were able to usurp the Yeltsin era oligarchy who were not permitted to be active in politics beyond supporting the Siloviki but kept their wealth to manage the country. The military were deliberately compromised and run down. Putin can be disempowered by others within the clique having more of their people in key positions, removed and replaced by another from within the clique especially the likes of Bortnikov, Sechin or another core Silovik. For the military or an outside group to gain power they would have to over throw the entire current establishment, that includes the Rosgyvardia (SOBR, OMON, Internal Troops etc) that was built to be the security for the inner core. The loyalties of things like the GRU (that run the Spetsnaz that you may have heard of) would very likely be with the other Siloviks and their job is among other things to keep an eye on the army. Its a country that has been run by spooks for 22 years, they built it to be coup proof. Does not mean it cannot happen, but its going to take more than a couple of angry colonels and a tank company to pull it off. Its a security services dictatorship running an advanced surveillance state. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongTimeLurker Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, ICTChris said: Video of a destruction of a Russian artillery column, seemingly by HIMARS using new more deadly warheads. The previous use of HIMARS was to attack ammo dumps and command posts, it seems they are now being used against Russian troops directly.... Imagine if they had Himars equipped with these missiles when the 40 km column formed north of Kyiv at the start of the war. From what I've read the main reason they are receiving them now is that the US army have 500,000 of them lying around doing not very much so sending these missiles ends any concerns there may have been about Ukraine burning through their available stockpile. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alert Mongoose Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, ICTChris said: Video of a destruction of a Russian artillery column, seemingly by HIMARS using new more deadly warheads. The previous use of HIMARS was to attack ammo dumps and command posts, it seems they are now being used against Russian troops directly. Hide contents That's fuckin terrifying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted October 10, 2022 Share Posted October 10, 2022 1 hour ago, ICTChris said: Video of a destruction of a Russian artillery column, seemingly by HIMARS using new more deadly warheads. The previous use of HIMARS was to attack ammo dumps and command posts, it seems they are now being used against Russian troops directly. Reveal hidden contents Russian military discipline is shocking.All bunched up in daylight and on the main track be aswell pointing a big giant arrow at themselves with the words "cooee we are here" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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