Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Dev]

Russian mobilization of Crimean Tatars tantamount to ‘ethnic cleansing’ / The New Voice of Ukraine (nv.ua)

Russian mobilization of Crimean Tatars tantamount to ‘ethnic cleansing,’ official says

September 25, 2022, 04:08 PM

By disproportionately targeting indigenous Crimean Tatars, Russia is pretreating an ethnically-motived genocide in occupied Crimea, Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak said in a Twitter post on Sept. 25.

According to Podolyak, the ongoing forced mobilization is a tragedy for the Crimean Tatar people.

“Sending citizens of occupied territories to war is nothing else but an attempt to ethnically cleanse the peninsula of people who are disloyal to Moscow,” said Podolyak.

 

 

Moscow-appointed “governor” of Crimea, Sergey Aksyonov earlier said that the “partial” mobilization in Crimea would conclude on Sept. 25. Human rights watchdog CrimeaSOS warned that 90% of mobilization notices on the peninsula were served to Crimean Tatars, which could effectively lead to genocide.

 

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy urged citizens in occupied territories to avoid the call-up by any means and attempt to leave to Ukraine-controlled territory.

The president’s Crimean representative Tamila Ravil Qizi Tasheva posted a bulletin, outlining the steps to avoid getting forcibly mobilized by the Russian occupation regime.

 

 

Read also:

 Russia bars men of draft age from leaving Ukraine’s Crimea

Putin declared “partial” mobilization in Russia on Sept. 21, ostensibly planning to call-up 300,000 men to the Russian army.

Several Russian media later reported that up to 1.2 million men are going to get mobilized, with ethnic minorities across Russia bearing the brunt of the call-up.

[vikingTON]

Ah yes, because what a multipolar world really needs is to turn genocide into a figurative spin term for 'things that are unfair/I don't like'. 

[Dev]

Russia has a track record of "re-locating" ethnic communities such as the Tatars. It wouldn't be the first occasion it has happened. 

[Newbornbairn]

20 minutes ago, TxRover said:

With Serbia even commenting against Putin’s stunts, Russia is pretty well isolated.

Never mind, he'll always have a couple of supporters on here.

[vikingTON]

Just now, Dev said:

Russia has a track record of "re-locating" ethnic communities such as the Tatars. It wouldn't be the first occasion it has happened. 

Relocation wouldn't be genocide either. I think we should continue to use international law and consequent precise dictionaries to define this rather important term, rather than a political spin doctor. 

Between this and the China coup it's really not been a great few days for those who take their hot takes off Twitter. 

[Loonytoons]

Relocation wouldn't be genocide either. I think we should continue to use international law and consequent precise dictionaries to define this rather important term, rather than a political spin doctor. 
Between this and the China coup it's really not been a great few days for those who take their hot takes off Twitter. 

I may be wrong but I took from the report that they are basically going to be cannon fodder.
Ill equipped, poorly trained and poorly coordinated going into battle against a well equipped, well trained and well coordinated force.
They are going to be wiped out in vast numbers.
Isn't that why "tantamount" was used?

[vikingTON]

59 minutes ago, Loonytoons said:

I may be wrong but I took from the report that they are basically going to be cannon fodder.
Ill equipped, poorly trained and poorly coordinated going into battle against a well equipped, well trained and well coordinated force.
They are going to be wiped out in vast numbers.

That's just jumping to a set of conclusions. Civilians (many of which are reservists) are being enlisted across Russia: if they're ill-trained and ill-equipped to fight, then all of them are.

If ethnically Tatar battalions are being force-marched to the line without any equipment to act as human shields for ethnic Russian forces, then that would absolutely be a legitimate crime of genocide. But the 'reports' do not substantiate anything close to that.

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Isn't that why "tantamount" was used?

"Tantamount" is a weasel word that has no place juxtaposed to genocide. That has a pretty clear definition and the more that spin doctors in Kiev or indeed Beijing, Moscow or Washington use that term to cry wolf, then more historic acts of genocide will be forgotten and more new ones perpetrated.

It's a risible propaganda line. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by vikingTON

[Loonytoons]

It's not jumping to conclusions at all.
The other reservists getting called up are also heavily weighted towards ethnic monorities.
They are going to be cannon fodder too and that's just as deliberate a decision as sending the Tatars to the front line poorly equipped.

Massive numbers of ethnic minorities being forced onto the frontline and are very likely to be wiped out by a political decision. Is that not "tantamount" to genocide?

[jagfox]

 

 

[jagfox]

 

Big if true.

[jagfox]

 

 

[Dev]

3 hours ago, virginton said:

That's just jumping to a set of conclusions. Civilians (many of which are reservists) are being enlisted across Russia: if they're ill-trained and ill-equipped to fight, then all of them are.

If ethnically Tatar battalions are being force-marched to the line without any equipment to act as human shields for ethnic Russian forces, then that would absolutely be a legitimate crime of genocide. But the 'reports' do not substantiate anything close to that.

"Tantamount" is a weasel word that has no place juxtaposed to genocide. That has a pretty clear definition and the more that spin doctors in Kiev or indeed Beijing, Moscow or Washington use that term to cry wolf, then more historic acts of genocide will be forgotten and more new ones perpetrated.

It's a risible propaganda line. 

Yes, it does seem to be a really good idea to give so many Russian volunteers weapons to go fight their "enemies" from within! With so many pushed to the front-line, apparently, they are running out of Chechen mafia to shoot them in the back.

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Loonytoons said:

It's not jumping to conclusions at all.
The other reservists getting called up are also heavily weighted towards ethnic monorities.

Have you or anyone else on Twitter actually investigated the registry of Russian reservists to work out why call-ups weighted towards ethnic minorities?

The British army recruits a shit ton more northern English folk than Londoners as well - not because of genocide against Mackems and Cumbrians, but because social and economic factors also play a huge role in military recruitment. As has already been seen by the disproportionate role of Chechen fighters on the Russian side. 

None of the above even remotely falls under the term of 'genocide'.

Quote

They are going to be cannon fodder too and that's just as deliberate a decision as sending the Tatars to the front line poorly equipped.

Well no it quite clearly isn't. Reservists being mobilised to fight a war is clearly not an act of genocide. 

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Massive numbers of ethnic minorities being forced onto the frontline and are very likely to be wiped out by a political decision. Is that not "tantamount" to genocide?

I've already pointed out why the 'tantamount' weasel word is entirely inappropriate to the clearly defined term of genocide. But even then, no, it really isn't.

Let's walk through the 'logic' one last time here. The Russian state is so malevolent that it is deliberately wiping out the Tatar Crimeans by... err, giving reservists a crucial role in stemming a Ukrainian military offensive? With the complete absence of Stalin-era blocking units, there's nothing much to stop the downtrodden Tatar units literally crossing over into 'captivity' and safety, and derailing whatever the Kremlin hopes to achieve on the ground in the process. 

It's almost as if this is just a crock of shit line being peddled by a spin doctor!

[jagfox]

Must be quite a cost to the Russian government as the drafted are to get paid contractors' salaries. 

Also reports some have been placed straight to the front line without any training. 

Seems quite a gamble as to the effectiveness of these recruits in plugging the holes in the front line.

A few more recruitment centers have been firebombed including in Kaliningrad and St Petersburg oblasts.

Apart from Dagestan there doesn't seem to be any massed demonstrations at the moment.   

Putin is pushing the populace but on the whole they aren't pushing back. 

A lot of the regions outside Moscow and St Petersburg have high unemployment and overall will be looking at things from a totally different angle from Western points of view. 

Russia has also put a similar rule in place stopping people leaving the country without the correct written permission 

Interesting times... 

[Loonytoons]

Quote

Have you or anyone else on Twitter actually investigated the registry of Russian reservists to work out why call-ups weighted towards ethnic minorities?

The British army recruits a shit ton more northern English folk than Londoners as well - not because of genocide against Mackems and Cumbrians, but because social and economic factors also play a huge role in military recruitment. As has already been seen by the disproportionate role of Chechen fighters on the Russian side. 

None of the above even remotely falls under the term of 'genocide'.

So much wrong with the current situation in the above.

Northern English have a fair bit of pride about them but I'd truly be surprised if they think they're ethnic minorities which is why you are correct that it doesn't come under the term of genocide.

Being well trained, well equipped and not getting stuck on the front line as cannon fodder also doesn't come under the term of genocide, so kudos to you for that one too. 

Also Chechens were happy to  provide bodies at the initial stages of what was meant to be a walk over rather than be press ganged in, so yet again not a genocidal decision from that angle.  Now, however, they have basically told Putin he can do one as they have, as you say, provided far more men than they originally intended to.   That disproportionate number is about to swing quite wildly the other way in the coming weeks.

 

Quote

Well no it quite clearly isn't. Reservists being mobilised to fight a war is clearly not an act of genocide. 

They are press ganging ethnic minorities and will be supplying them with little training, poor equipment, very poor leadership and threats if they desert, surrender or mutiny.  What do you think will be the outcome here?  It's a political decision to put them in a position where a large proportion will not come out of this alive.

1 hour ago, virginton said:

I've already pointed out why the 'tantamount' weasel word is entirely inappropriate to the clearly defined term of genocide. But even then, no, it really isn't.

Let's walk through the 'logic' one last time here. The Russian state is so malevolent that it is deliberately wiping out the Tatar Crimeans by... err, giving reservists a crucial role in stemming a Ukrainian military offensive? With the complete absence of Stalin-era blocking units, there's nothing much to stop the downtrodden Tatar units literally crossing over into 'captivity' and safety, and derailing whatever the Kremlin hopes to achieve on the ground in the process. 

It's almost as if this is just a crock of shit line being peddled by a spin doctor!

I may be mistaken and apologies if incorrect but haven't you already pointed out why Russia wasn't actually going to invade Ukraine as well.  Could you walk us through that 'logic' one more time too?

 

Russia is sticking poorly trained, poorly equipped ethnic minorities on the front line against a rapidly improving well trained and better equipped foe.  They really aren't putting the ethnic Russians there in great numbers and at the first hint of it, those recruits are trying to scuttle out of it.

[TxRover]

6 hours ago, jagfox said:

 

Big if true.

The biggest problem with a declaration of war is it opens up all Russian territory as a no shit legitimate target for the Ukrainians. I would expect multiple strikes at logistics hubs and ammo storage inside Russia if Putin declares war, but the targets would be clear of civilian populations. The intent would be to hurt with minimal civilian casualties, almost the opposite of the Russian tactics. Serious ATACMS deliveries to Ukraine would probably be started upon such a declaration, especially as it seems likely some have already been delivered. That would increase the strike distance from HIMARS 57 miles to 140 miles+.

[ICTChris]

Video emerged overnight of the shooting dead of the head of a local draft committee in a recruitment office in Siberia.

I won’t post it on here.

[TheScarf]

I mean I think it's pretty much guaranteed Russia will have one nuclear attack then be wiped out from all sides, literally.

[ICTChris]

Summary in the FT of the potential impact of Russian mobilisation on the war. While the mobilised troops are unlikely to be very effective the addition of even minimally trained troops could have an impact .

https://www.ft.com/content/87e3ed67-0f31-49e2-a49d-5b49a12c39ec

[welshbairn]