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Russian invasion of Ukraine


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5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

At that point, I would probably no longer support the West's intervention since that would be IMO, the point where this became about something else other than Ukraine. At that point for me Western leaders would be gambling WW3 for their own agendas.

Theres nothing to gain here from pursuing some sort of mass humiliation of Russia once Ukraine is secured under some sort of treaty or deal.

At least, not for people like us.....

The problem is that there  is absolutely no prospect at present of Putin accepting or abiding by the terms of any international treaty or negotiated agreement.

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2 minutes ago, Blue Brazil Forever said:

The problem is that there  is absolutely no prospect at present of Putin accepting or abiding by the terms of any international treaty or negotiated agreement.

This is where the good Ruskies tell him he won and the treaty is a triumph he should retire on.

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11 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Reports that UK intelligence have heard that Putin will use the May 9th parade / celebrations to declare formal war on Ukraine and begin a general mobilisation.

Not sure I believe it. Clearly Putin doesn’t want to do this and I don’t think he will be in a position where he feels he has to at that point.

What is the main difference between that and now? it already feels like a "proper " war as it is 

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17 minutes ago, effeffsee_the2nd said:

What is the main difference between that and now? it already feels like a "proper " war as it is 

World War II style conscription so they have the boots on the ground needed to storm defensive lines and hold territory with a hostile population in the aftermath. With the sort of weaponry NATO is sending now they are going to have a huge problem finding sufficient numbers of serviceable tanks and military vehicles in a few months even if they do that but it would drag things out a lot longer.

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9 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

At that point, I would probably no longer support the West's intervention since that would be IMO, the point where this became about something else other than Ukraine. At that point for me Western leaders would be gambling WW3 for their own agendas.

Theres nothing to gain here from pursuing some sort of mass humiliation of Russia once Ukraine is secured under some sort of treaty or deal.

At least, not for people like us.....

The Russians have shown that they will murder, rape and deport to the Gulags any Ukrainian in territory they occupy. The West should give Ukraine the tools to take their country back, all of it if that's what they want.

 

f**k Russia and f**k Russians. 

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The Russians have shown that they will murder, rape and deport to the Gulags any Ukrainian in territory they occupy. The West should give Ukraine the tools to take their country back, all of it if that's what they want.
 
f**k Russia and f**k Russians. 
See this for me is social media rhetoric that shows a real detachment from reality.
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2 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:
4 minutes ago, Newbornbairn said:
The Russians have shown that they will murder, rape and deport to the Gulags any Ukrainian in territory they occupy. The West should give Ukraine the tools to take their country back, all of it if that's what they want.
 
f**k Russia and f**k Russians. 

See this for me is social media rhetoric that shows a real detachment from reality.

Pish man. The idea that we should care about how Russia feels about this is frankly bizarre. They started it, they invaded a country that was no threat to them. They've rampaged across Ukraine killing innocent men, women and children at will. f**k them. 

 

It's like saying America could keep a bit of Vietnam because they would be offended otherwise. 

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4 minutes ago, Newbornbairn said:

Pish man. The idea that we should care about how Russia feels about this is frankly bizarre. They started it, they invaded a country that was no threat to them. They've rampaged across Ukraine killing innocent men, women and children at will. f**k them. 

 

It's like saying America could keep a bit of Vietnam because they would be offended otherwise. 

It's not about caring how they feel. That is, once again, a really naive angle to come from. It's quite literally about avoiding not only WW3, but a disastrous economic climate for years. If we choose to go beyond the remit of making sure Ukraine is allowed to continue existing, for reasons of powerful men in the West deciding we should, thats not acceptable. 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

..., for reasons of powerful men in the West deciding we should, thats not acceptable. 

Even China still recognises Ukraine's 2014 borders. Not viewing Crimea as Russian de jure is not just a Western posture. 

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12 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

It's not about caring how they feel. That is, once again, a really naive angle to come from. It's quite literally about avoiding not only WW3, but a disastrous economic climate for years. If we choose to go beyond the remit of making sure Ukraine is allowed to continue existing, for reasons of powerful men in the West deciding we should, thats not acceptable. 

 

 

Sorry pal this is nonsense, if Hitler & his Scientists got there before The Manhattan Project did, then none of us would have ever existed. Putin needs to be stopped, right now & there are plenty of Mossad agents with links to oligarchs who should be making this happen as quickly as possible.

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2 minutes ago, Moomintroll said:

Sorry pal this is nonsense, if Hitler & his Scientists got there before The Manhattan Project did, then none of us would have ever existed. Putin needs to be stopped, right now & there are plenty of Mossad agents with links to oligarchs who should be making this happen as quickly as possible.

World we would like =/= World we have. 

If we continue to push and push and push even after Russia are emptied out of the Donbas, the chances of Russia following through on the nuclear threat increase greatly. 

If folk think that's worthwhile to make a point and make sure the goodies win, fair enough. I disagree. I have absolutely no idea what any of this has to do with Hitler. 

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4 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

World we would like =/= World we have. 

If we continue to push and push and push even after Russia are emptied out of the Donbas, the chances of Russia following through on the nuclear threat increase greatly. 

If folk think that's worthwhile to make a point and make sure the goodies win, fair enough. I disagree. I have absolutely no idea what any of this has to do with Hitler. 

To be fair, I am spectacularly pished & rereading your original post, I thought you were advocating appeasement which was not the case. Feel free to ignore my addled ramblings, if Putin is pushed out of the Donbas Region & accepts it then we can all breathe a sigh of relief & move onto whatever calamity is coming next. Sorry.

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9 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Russian TV, having a normal one.

 

It's a fascinating phenomenon to what extent the UK of all nations seems to live rent free in the heads of the Russian political elite. 

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20 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think it's clear now that Russia needs to fully mobilise in the not too distant future or they will be in real danger of a humiliating defeat very few people in the West thought possible back in February. That last bit means some of the other basic assumptions that were generally held at that point are starting to be questioned as well. Think people are getting a wee bit too far ahead of events because there's a strong possibility they actually will mobilise if losing Sebastopol, Donetsk and Luhansk emerges as a credible scenario. 

If they do mobilise it's a sign of complete desperation and more or less an admission of impending defeat. Militarily, reservists are very much a "in case of emergency, break glass" option only to be used in extremis...in Britain unless there was a huge and imminent danger they would only countenance using ones that have been out for a few years...much longer and they're no more use than grabbing some guys off the street. Maybe less useful, as sometimes a little half-remembered knowledge can be a bad thing.

Factor in that the Russians have already expended a lot of their first-echelon equipment and continue to piss their remaining assets up against the wall over a broad front rather than concentrating force at one or two strategically important points, and you could be looking at them launching pointless human waves of barely trained troops at a dug-in and tooled-up defence a la WW1.

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18 minutes ago, renton said:

It's a fascinating phenomenon to what extent the UK of all nations seems to live rent free in the heads of the Russian political elite. 

The guy in those pictures, Andrei Isayev, lead an anarchist group in the late 80s and early 90s, he lead the pro-student protests in Moscow around the time of the Tiannamen Square massacre.  He soon mellowed and is now a highly corrupt member of United Russia. 
 

Classic boomer move to gammon status as he ages.

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