Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Todd_is_God]

3 minutes ago, oaksoft said:

All this fighting back by the Ukrainians must be pissing off @virginton and @Todd_is_God who wanted them to simply roll over and allow Russia to take their entire country without a gun being fired so that we could continue to have cheap energy bills. 

Yeah, no, that wasn't what I said at all, but it's nice you are thinking of me on a Saturday night.

[LongTimeLurker]

The Donetsk airport stuff eventually was ridiculed:

 

But there does still appear to be some sort of move actively underway to take back the main towns of Severodonetsk raion:

 

 

 

[sophia]

On 09/08/2022 at 11:27, Todd_is_God said:

I was meaning a more neutral stance overall. Not supplying weapons to one side whilst sanctioning the other. That is not a neutral stance and also has no real bargaining power as you have already played your hand.

The arrogant West believed their sanctions would force Russia to quickly abandon hostilities, but that didn't work and the only real result is soaring domestic inflation caused by massive energy price increases.

It's in absolutely no-one's best interests to maintain this conflict, yet the deep rooted anti-Russian sentiment means the only option considered is to support Ukraine at all cost.

 

On 09/08/2022 at 11:35, Todd_is_God said:

This argument doesn't hold up as nobody gives a f**k when anyone else invades their neighbour.

How high are we, the public, prepared to allow our energy bills to climb for the sake of Ukraine?

 

On 09/08/2022 at 12:21, Todd_is_God said:

Firstly, that's not really our problem, is it? We wouldn't be yielding against Ukraine anyway - Regional conflicts in the former Soviet Bloc are not ours to police.

Secondly, you didn't answer the most important question as far as you or I are concerned - How high are we, the public, prepared to allow our energy bills to climb for the sake of Ukraine?

 

On 09/08/2022 at 12:38, Todd_is_God said:

Again, aside from being a ludicrously hypothetical scenario, this dodges the question.

How high are we, the public, prepared to allow our energy bills to climb for the sake of Ukraine?

£5k? £6k? £8k?

 

On 09/08/2022 at 12:59, Todd_is_God said:

I mean, pretty much everything I said about Covid restrictions ended up being correct so I'm not entirely sure what point you are trying to make here.

Massive Bigger Picture ≠ What looks good.

Ending the war in Ukraine ASAP is clearly what the preferred outcome for everyone is, so again I'm not sure what point you are making.

To use your analogy, though, Ukraine winning this war, and, in doing so, claiming back the territory it has lost is the new "Zero Covid".

 

8 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

Yeah, no, that wasn't what I said at all, but it's nice you are thinking of me on a Saturday night.

I agree that wasn't the point you were making, apart, of course, that it repeatedly was.

[Newbornbairn]

I find the "for the sake of Ukraine" pretty distasteful. The Russians are raping, torturing, murdering and committing atrocities across swathes of the country but it doesn't matter because these people are Ukrainian? Away to f**k with that shite. 

[Todd_is_God]

2 hours ago, sophia said:

 

 

 

 

 

I agree that wasn't the point you were making, apart, of course, that it repeatedly was.

It's really not, though, is it? Whilst I genuinely do not really care who wins this war, my point has always been that I would have preferred if the West's intervention was to help find a way to end the war quickly, rather than prolong it and cause energy prices to sky rocket in the meantime.

[Sergeant Wilson]

After losing the Anthill, they lost several of the surrounding fortifications

Taken prisoner as well. I thought more of them.

 

 

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

I'm not a military expert, but a tank regiment leaving all their tanks behind doesn't feel like an orderly, well managed withdrawal.

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 minutes ago, Carl Cort's Hamstring said:

I'm not a military expert, but a tank regiment leaving all their tanks behind doesn't feel like an orderly, well managed withdrawal.

It doesn't make sense. They're not going to get a heroes welcome when they get back. I'd have risked changing sides and claiming to have captured the gear.

[ICTChris]

2 hours ago, Todd_is_God said:

It's really not, though, is it? Whilst I genuinely do not really care who wins this war, my point has always been that I would have preferred if the West's intervention was to help find a way to end the war quickly, rather than prolong it and cause energy prices to sky rocket in the meantime.

This is an unbelievably disingenuous take.  

You say "I don't care who wins the war" while advocating for a course of action that could only result in assisting one participant.  Either you are being dishonest or stupid.  Both could be true I suppose.

The assumption you make is that the West had some sort of magic card they could play that would end the war, that there is some magic negotiated solution imposed from above that will end the fighting.  Sadly, that isn't the case.  The points of de-escalation have come when the Ukrainians have militarily defeated the Russians - the withdrawal from the North of Ukraine around Kyiv came because the Ukrainian forces stopped the Russians and caused them significant losses.  The partial reopening of the Black Sea and grain deliveries from Ukraine came as a result of Ukrainian attacks rendering the Russian Navy unable to control that part of the Black Sea (destroying forces on Snake Island, sinking the Moskva, as well as other attacks on Russian warships).  Now, in the last few days we are seeing that thousands of square kilometers are being liberated due to the counter offensive. 

If the West hadn't assisted Ukraine at all the likelihood is not that the war would be over.  The first part of the war was disastrous for the Russians and was generally fought without significant Western weaponry or assistance - it was Soviet air defences and artillery that was the most important part of the defence of Kyiv and the battles in the North.  Some Western support began to come through after that to assist with the battle for the Donbas but its only really the last few months that it's reached the levels of having a significant impact on the battlefield.  

This is leaving aside the moral considerations - we know that when Russia occupied towns around Kyiv it carried out numerous massacres of civilians.  It was at this point that the Ukrainians stopped negotiating - how can they stop fighting when the enemy is murdering people in this way?  Minimising or ignoring this is something that all the crackpot conspiracists, galaxy brained contrarians and bitter ragers on this thread have in common.  

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by ICTChris

[LongTimeLurker]

Russia appears to be completely withdrawing from Kharkiv oblast west of the Oskil river. That should mean the shelling of Ukraine's second largest city will now come to an end and life there can normalise to the extent it can right now anywhere in Ukraine:

 

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[D Angelo Barksdale]

The Russian army just sacking it and retreating back to the pre war status quo is a hell of a result.

[Hillonearth]

Possibly the most Keystone Kops moment I've seen yet of the current Russian "regrouping"

 

[Sweet Pete]

ICTChris handing out a beating there not unlike the UAF currently are.

[jagfox]

35 minutes ago, Stringer Bell said:

The Russian army just sacking it and retreating back to the pre war status quo is a hell of a result.

As long as de-nazification has occurred they will state it as a win...

[Lurkst]

1 hour ago, ICTChris said:

This is leaving aside the moral considerations - we know that when Ukraine occupied towns around Kyiv it carried out numerous massacres of civilians. 

Great post, although I take it you meant Russia here? 

[ICTChris]

19 minutes ago, Lurkst said:

Great post, although I take it you meant Russia here? 

Yes, cheers.

The Russians have confirmed they are withdrawing from all of Kharkiv Oblast, aside from The area east of the Oskol river.

This means the Kharkiv counter offensive has liberated 8300 square kilometres of territory in less than a week.

[LongTimeLurker]

Looks like there was no deal made on what happens east of the Oskil river in Kharkiv oblast:

 

 

 

But my guess would be that the Russians got to withdraw from Izium in exchange for leaving lots of territory further north without a fight.

[Moomintroll]

Where has the snivelling, condescending arsehole from Greenock gone? And where is Todd_got something right 12 months later? Sturgeon must condemn!

[Bairnardo]

Does this war end with Russians just going back to Russia, never acknowledging that there was a war or that they got their balls chewed off?

[Dev]

29 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Does this war end with Russians just going back to Russia, never acknowledging that there was a war or that they got their balls chewed off?

Or, does this invasion end with a re-bound and the further break-up of Putin's Nationalist Russian state?

He set out to "regain" lost land from the former Russian Empire but could end up wrecking what's left of it. After all the military has been weakened already and there will be more damage if the West  continues to support the Ukraine in its' efforts to clear out the Russian military AND the activist Russians from Donbas and elsewhere. Will some groups in Russia lose their fear/respect and fight for freedom? It happened in the recent past with lots of new nations emerging which seem happy to continue in their independent ways.

There's been reference on these threads about who runs Russia with mentions of the influence of a Mafia or Mafias. Inter Mafia warfare has happened before e.g. in the US. They hold no loyalty to anyone or anything so that could be another point of weakness. Could the apparent failings in the Ukraine spark a huge internal power struggle?

Good Ol' Vlad. Nice work!