Russian invasion of Ukraine

[Sergeant Wilson]

8 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Seems like the head of Azov has downplayed the reports.

 

[ICTChris]

More Ukrainian marines have surrendered in Mariupol. They had run out of food and ammunition. Previously it had been claimed that the Ukrainian forces in the city were being reinforced using helicopters that obviously isn’t possible anymore.

[ICTChris]

Other Ukrainian Marines say they won’t surrender.

 

 

[ICTChris]

Railway bridge sabotaged near Belogrod, inside Russia.

 

[velo army]

22 hours ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

I see the, erm support for denazifiction of Ukraine continues through Russians in Italy. 

Great laugh though eh.

It wasn't a Nazi salute though. I saw it as him having a laugh with the Italian flag part if it. He gave a Roman salute (as in "hail Caesar") and then shared a laugh with his pals. He's a young lad, so geopolitics tend to take a back seat to clowning about with your pals. A bit naughty, but nowt more than that.

[welshbairn]

23 minutes ago, velo army said:

It wasn't a Nazi salute though. I saw it as him having a laugh with the Italian flag part if it. He gave a Roman salute (as in "hail Caesar") and then shared a laugh with his pals. He's a young lad, so geopolitics tend to take a back seat to clowning about with your pals. A bit naughty, but nowt more than that.

Still cost him his place in the team.

[Wee Bully]

55 minutes ago, velo army said:

It wasn't a Nazi salute though. I saw it as him having a laugh with the Italian flag part if it. He gave a Roman salute (as in "hail Caesar") and then shared a laugh with his pals. He's a young lad, so geopolitics tend to take a back seat to clowning about with your pals. A bit naughty, but nowt more than that.

A Roman salute?  Is he casting back to Caesar here, or Mussolini?

[Detournement]

13 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Azov Battalion have said that Russian forces have dropped a substance on their soldiers in Mariupol that is causing breathing difficulties.

Like most things in Mariupol it’s very hard to confirm or verify. 

Russia have said they are going to smoke them out the underground areas of the steel factory and have been studying diagrams of the ventilation system. 

Azov announced five weddings in the plant last week so it does seem like they are doing 120 Days Of Sodom for real. 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

2 hours ago, velo army said:

It wasn't a Nazi salute though. I saw it as him having a laugh with the Italian flag part if it. He gave a Roman salute (as in "hail Caesar") and then shared a laugh with his pals. He's a young lad, so geopolitics tend to take a back seat to clowning about with your pals. A bit naughty, but nowt more than that.

Daft wee laddie doesn’t cut it in the current climate.

[velo army]

1 hour ago, Wee Bully said:

A Roman salute?  Is he casting back to Caesar here, or Mussolini?

The Roman salute would be going back to Caesar. I saw a lot of the Twitter reactions and it was a bit much. There's plenty to be outraged and fearful of in this war without seeing things that aren't there. This looked like a young daft lad having a laugh at being under an Italian flag while in high spirits.

[velo army]

3 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Daft wee laddie doesn’t cut it in the current climate.

It doesn't seem to, does it? It needs to be remembered that we're responsible for how we react to things, that just because we feel a certain way about something doesn't mean that this caused the feeling, or that our feelings reflect reality. The lad was accused of throwing a Nazi salute. He didn't do that. It's different to the young lad who had the "z" symbol when winning a gymnastics (I think) competition. That's unequivocal. That only means one thing. This instance is one which, when looked at without prejudgement, can be seen as, at worst, I'll advised. 

 

[Wee Bully]

1 hour ago, velo army said:

The Roman salute would be going back to Caesar. I saw a lot of the Twitter reactions and it was a bit much. There's plenty to be outraged and fearful of in this war without seeing things that aren't there. This looked like a young daft lad having a laugh at being under an Italian flag while in high spirits.

Would it?  There’s no real evidence of it going back to Caesar.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_salute

“The Roman salute (Italian: saluto romano), alternatively called the Fascist salute (Italian: saluto fascista), is a gesture in which the arm is fully extended, facing forward, with palm down and fingers touching. In some versions, the arm is raised upward at an angle; in others, it is held out parallel to the ground. In contemporary times, the former is commonly considered a symbol of fascism that had been based on a custom popularly attributed to ancient Rome.^[1] However, no Roman text gives this description, and the Roman works of art that display salutational gestures bear little resemblance to the modern Roman salute.”

 

[ICTChris]

Fans of Adam Curtis take note - Vladislav Surkov has been detained on suspicion of embezzlement. Millions of euros hidden in Cyprus apparently. Interesting indicator of elite splits in Russia.

[welshbairn]

16 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Fans of Adam Curtis take note - Vladislav Surkov has been detained on suspicion of embezzlement. Millions of euros hidden in Cyprus apparently. Interesting indicator of elite splits in Russia.

Piece on him here, haven't listened to it yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003jhg

[Lurkst]

54 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Fans of Adam Curtis take note 

This crossed my mind today. Crying out for a new Curtis documentary at the moment. 

 

[highlandcowden]

8 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Other Ukrainian Marines say they won’t surrender.

 

 

Poor sods

[Melanius Mullarkey]

6 hours ago, velo army said:

It doesn't seem to, does it? It needs to be remembered that we're responsible for how we react to things, that just because we feel a certain way about something doesn't mean that this caused the feeling, or that our feelings reflect reality. The lad was accused of throwing a Nazi salute. He didn't do that. It's different to the young lad who had the "z" symbol when winning a gymnastics (I think) competition. That's unequivocal. That only means one thing. This instance is one which, when looked at without prejudgement, can be seen as, at worst, I'll advised. 

 

Yes but where’s the fun in that?

[Dan Steele]

8 hours ago, velo army said:

wasn't a Nazi salute though. I saw it as him having a laugh with the Italian flag part if it. He gave a Roman salute

Mmm, don't know about that. If he's so clued up with Roman history then he knows what's going on with this deliberate act. He might look like a wee laddie but that's no excuse. You can't have an heirarchy of fascist salutes. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

6 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Mmm, don't know about that. If he's so clued up with Roman history then he knows what's going on with this deliberate act. He might look like a wee laddie but that's no excuse. You can't have an heirarchy of fascist salutes. 

I don't know...

[velo army]

2 minutes ago, The Skelpit Lug said:

Mmm, don't know about that. If he's so clued up with Roman history then he knows what's going on with this deliberate act. He might look like a wee laddie but that's no excuse. You can't have an heirarchy of fascist salutes. 

Och tbh I'm not that clued up on Roman history, but that gesture (specifically with the fist on the chest first) is one seen in plenty popular culture portrayals of Romans. If he wasn't standing under an Italian flag, I'd probably agree with everyone that he was going for some kind of fascist or Nazi salute. The fact that he was under that flag gave me a bit of pause. Also, the look he had on his face reminded me of so many teenage lads when they're mugging off for their pals. It could have also been a reference to Italian fascists and might just have been a poorly judged joke with his teammates. 

The optics are bad, so it is encouraging that the team withdrew him. It was the right thing to do. I'm assuming somebody gave him a literal or merely verbal clout round the ear.

I was reflecting earlier why I care about this and I think that folk (not necessarily the fine denizens of P and B, but the rest of the social media world) seem to want to be outraged by things, and do so enthusiastically and without any critical thought, so they create a story in their heads and view events through the filter of that story. So in this case the story is "Russia is becoming a big bad Nazi place like Germany in the 30's" and through that prism a young lad doing an italian fascist/roman salute while under an Italian flag becomes "look at that evil wee Nazi".  I would probably not be arsed if he'd been standing po-faced with his arm outstretched, but he did an italian/roman salute under an italian flag while laughing gleefully. He's either an evil psychopath, or a young lad making an ill-judged joke. In my experience of actual people the latter is always the most likely. Especially teenagers.