Russian invasion of Ukraine

[101]

1 hour ago, jagfox OG said:

Belarus is apparently one of the 3 worst standing armies in Europe. 

Are the better or worse than the salvation army?

[djchapsticks]

1 minute ago, Granny Danger said:

I thought the “Whose the worse person, Mark McGhee or Vladimir Putin?” poll was a bit OTT.

I mean Putin's a bugger but come to fuck.

[welshbairn]

Quote

MILITARY OPERATION IN UKRAINE1 MAR, 13:30
Russian Defense Ministry warns about strikes being prepared on military sites in Kiev
In order to thwart informational attacks against Russia, Russian forces will strike technological objects of the SBU and the 72nd Main PSO Center, the ministry informed

MOSCOW, March 1. /TASS/. Russian forces will strike objects of the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the 72nd Center for Information and Psychological Operations (PSO) in Kiev, Russian Defense Ministry warned Tuesday.

"In order to thwart informational attacks against Russia, [Russian forces] will strike technological objects of the SBU and the 72nd Main PSO Center in Kiev. We urge Ukrainian citizens involved by Ukrainian nationalists in provocations against Russia, as well as Kiev residents living near relay stations, to leave their homes," the Ministry said.

On February 24, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced that, in response to a request by the heads of the Donbass republics, he had made a decision to carry out a special military operation in Ukraine. The Russian leader stressed that Moscow had no plans of occupying Ukrainian territories. Russian Defense Ministry reassured that Russian troops are not targeting Ukrainian cities, but are limited to surgically striking and incapacitating Ukrainian military infrastructure. There are no threats whatsoever to the civilian population.

https://tass.com/defense/1414199

[Florentine_Pogen]

"Russia’s defence ministry is warning residents in Kyiv to leave their homes as it plans to strike targets in the Ukrainian capital, Russian state news agency Tass is reporting.

In a statement issued on Tuesday afternoon, the defence ministry says Russian forces are preparing to launch “high-precision strikes” against the “Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) and the 72nd Center for Information and Psychological Operations (PSO)“ in Kyiv.

We urge Ukrainian citizens involved by Ukrainian nationalists in provocations against Russia, as well as Kiev residents living near relay stations, to leave their homes."

Surely to f*ck they are not going to re-enact the flattening of Grozny in Kyiv.?

[sparky88]

38 minutes ago, Michael W said:

This would require enforcement by NATO, who would almost certainly be required to shoot Russian aircraft out the sky to enforce it. It is basically a declaration of war on Russia and its clear that NATO doesn't want this (and won't do it for a non-member). 

Of course, none of this detracts from her anger and I have no sympathy for Johnson having to take this sort of question. 

This is the correct answer. Johnson was expecting a tour round Eastern European capitals (not Kiev) and for smoke to be blown up his backside. Hilarious that it has backfired. 

[Fullerene]

1 hour ago, beefybake said:

The Warsaw Pact disintegrated because the countries involved were no longer occupied/satellites/client states, 

and the peoples of those countries were making their own decisions about the direction they wanted to go.

Being a member of the Warsaw Pact offered no protection against invasion.  In fact, the opposite.

NATO expansion to the east was popular with the countries for one main reason.  They did not want to be invaded.

I would not be surprised to see Moldova applying for membership as soon as possible.

[ICTChris]

Worth pointing out that no-one in Kyiv knows where these buildings are.  Fairly certain that relay stations aren't included on A to Z guides.

[ICTChris]

Just now, Fullerene said:

Being a member of the Warsaw Pact offered no protection against invasion.  In fact, the opposite.

NATO expansion to the east was popular with the countries for one main reason.  They did not want to be invaded.

I would not be surprised to see Moldova applying for membership as soon as possible.

Moldova can't be admitted as they have a breakaway territory they don't control.

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, beefybake said:

Whataboutery.

As for the other part of your comment. Personally, given the choice between living in a country where dissent gets you arrested/imprisoned/imprisoned for a very long time, and dissenting journalists end up face down in ditches........, or somewhere where broadly speaking , that doesn't happen. I know what my choice would be.

To say the least, I'm not a great admirer of Winston Churchill, but he did say something along the lines of.....

"..... Democracy may be rather shit, but it's better than the alternatives....". 

It's not whataboutery, it is a very straightforward test of your assertion that a state has the free right to choose its alliance and nobody else in the international community can object. As opposed to your bluster afterwards, which is both whataboutery and an enormous word salad. 

So answer the question(s) please: Taiwan in NATO - yes or no, and why? 

Edited March 1, 2022 by vikingTON

[throbber]

21 minutes ago, Dee Man said:

 

First post in ages and I'm being bullied already. I hope Vlad nukes Falkirk and Maryhill, although no-one would probably notice any difference in Maryhill tbf. 

This thread definitely needed a bit of David Brent input.

[K.T]

1 hour ago, Dee Man said:

Vladimir Putin - a great bunch of lads. 

Welcome back

[Dee Man]

3 minutes ago, throbber said:

This thread definitely needed a bit of David Brent input.

Yet more bullying. Absolutely disgusting. 

Shite banter aside, Maryhill genuinely does look like a nuclear wasteland. 

[vikingTON]

36 minutes ago, Savage Henry said:

 

There are countless American and pro-American analysts who share the exact same view. The fucking Cato Institute is not a front for Putinist propaganda, nor are the countless advisors and memoirists from the US' own administrations and strategic hierarchy who pointed out the long-term, geopolitical folly of expanding NATO eastwards in the 1990s while it was taking place. And here we are. 

None of this excuses Putin from culpability - it is however the critical long-term context in which this conflict has developed. 

When every single clock is showing you the same time, they are probably right and you are wrong. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by vikingTON

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

There are countless American and pro-American analysts who share the exact same view. The fucking Cato Institute is not a front for Putinist propaganda, nor are the countless advisors and memoirists from the US' own administrations and strategic hierarchy who pointed out the long-term, geopolitical folly of expanding NATO eastwards in the 1990s while it was taking place. And here we are. 

None of this excuses Putin from culpability - it is however the critical long-term context in which this conflict has developed. 

When every single clock is showing you the same time, they are probably right and you are wrong. 

Or you could deduce from what's happened that the Baltic states and others were dead right to join NATO as quickly as they'd have them.

[LongTimeLurker]

28 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Lukashenko denies he's sent his army into Ukraine, they're just hanging around the border keeping an eye out for radicals smuggling weapons.

He can see which way the wind is blowing right now.

[vikingTON]

13 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Or you could deduce from what's happened that the Baltic states and others were dead right to join NATO as quickly as they'd have them.

Or you could deduce from the actual fucking war and threat of actual global nuclear annihilation that it was a really fucking stupid idea to continue and indefinitely expand an anti-Soviet alliance after its purpose had been fulfilled.

You are reading backwards Russian intentions to 25 years ago, before they were actually boxed into a (very large) geopolitical corner. There was no inevitability to this outcome. The genesis of a belligerent and revisionist Russia isn't Putin - it is NATO's folly of incorporating eastern Europe, while setting up Ukraine as a hostage to fortune on its extremity. Putin is now attempting to take and use that hostage, for which he should absolutely be condemned. It takes at least two parties to cause an international crisis though, and the warnings were given loud and clear to Western leaders at the time. 

Edited March 1, 2022 by vikingTON

[yoda]

6 minutes ago, virginton said:

None of this excuses Putin from culpability - it is however the critical long-term context in which this conflict has developed. 

This is obviously the important, nuanced, part that's maybe not been emphasised by some folk (not necessarily on here, but elsewhere online and in sections of the media).

 

[Salvo Montalbano]

6 hours ago, Detournement said:

There hasn't been any significant resistance. In five days they have complete control of the skies, destroyed the Ukranian navy, encircled Kiev, kettled the main Ukranian army and have launched offensives on target cities. 

The main resistance has been a resistance to the truth in the media.

Surely Russia would have expected to have won the whole war by now - especially after Putin asked Ukrainians to put down their weapons and return home. The fact that they didn't, by and large had meant that the Russian advances haven't seen as quick as people would expect. They also seem to have deployed a lot more troops than first expected. Why have they done that and not won the war yet if there has been no effective resistance?

5 hours ago, RandomGuy. said:

Yes. I could fully see the agreement to end this being Ukraine is split in half down the Dneiper river. Russia gets the East side and land access to Crimea. Ukraine gets left the west side.

If that happens I think Putin will absolutely fucking level Kiev so Ukraine don't have their capital right on the new border, and to serve as a lasting reminder for Ukranians of Russian power.

While the first seems likely, the importance of Kyiv to Russian history and the religious significance to the Orthodox Church surely makes the second less likely? They might try to force Ukraine to move their capital to Lviv or somewhere though.

[Sergeant Wilson]

14 hours ago, Scosha said:

One thing that always amazes me is when the likes of BBC/Sky send their reporters right to the heart of the centre of the crisis. Is it really that important to have someone there reporting live rather than back in the UK? What if Kyiv suddenly comes under severe attack - have they got emergency exit plans? 

What do you suggest, phone the Russians and ask for an update?

4 hours ago, ICTChris said:

Reports from Northern Ukraine that Belarussian troops have joined the invasion.

That's like bringing on Mark Yardley.

1 hour ago, jagfox OG said:

I see Australia are sending over some rockets. Have you  signed up yet m9? 

I'd rather they sent the ones that live in London.

[renton]

37 minutes ago, virginton said:

It's not whataboutery, it is a very straightforward test of your assertion that a state has the free right to choose its alliance and nobody else in the international community can object. As opposed to your bluster afterwards, which is both whataboutery and an enormous word salad. 

So answer the question(s) please: Taiwan in NATO - yes or no, and why? 

Doesn't Taiwan still claim to be the constitutionally legitimate Chinese government? In which case it wouldn't get in on the technicalities that it had a breakaway territory (the mainland) thay it didn't control.