The Gender Debate

[welshbairn]

4 hours ago, Hampden Diehard said:

Biological men competing in women's sports where physique and strength is a factor; utter nonsense. Argument closed.

Separate competitions for trans athletes is the way to go.

I don't know for sure, but I think it would be a struggle to find 5 trans people in Inverness who were keen to make up a 5's football team. The second problem would be finding another team to play against.

Edited April 5, 2022 by welshbairn

[Boo Khaki]

23 hours ago, DA Baracus said:

What religious belief means you can't use a unisex toilet?

Those who invoke 'religious beliefs' should just be honest and admit it is bigotry, because saying 'religious beliefs' fools absolutely no one.

Are Muslim women not forbidden from sharing 'intimate' spaces with males who are not their husbands or offspring? So toilets, changing rooms, washing facilities etc.

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on this if it is not the case, but that's always been my understanding of how it works for observant Muslims, and it's certainly the case with the Pakistani woman I used to work with.

'Unisex toilet' really needs expanded on. Obviously if it's a one-person cubicle in a small work place, there's only ever going to be one occupant in there at any given time, but if it's a 'mixed' toilet with multiple cubicles, I can only assume that would pose a problem if it was the only loo available to use for female Muslim staff/customers. You can't predict when a male might be in there or walk in when you are already in there yourself.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Boo Khaki

[Busta Nut]

Religion is for nutters.

[Suspect Device]

3 hours ago, Cosmic Joe said:

In other words it does not affect you, so why should you care. 

"First they came for the martial arts enthusiasts" etc

Anyone quoting HMHB lyrics deserves a greenie.

[DA Baracus]

20 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Are Muslim women not forbidden from sharing 'intimate' spaces with males who are not their husbands or offspring? So toilets, changing rooms, washing facilities etc.

I'm perfectly happy to be corrected on this if it is not the case, but that's always been my understanding of how it works for observant Muslims, and it's certainly the case with the Pakistani woman I used to work with.

'Unisex toilet' really needs expanded on. Obviously if it's a one-person cubicle in a small work place, there's only ever going to be one occupant in there at any given time, but if it's a 'mixed' toilet with multiple cubicles, I can only assume that would pose a problem if it was the only loo available to use for female Muslim staff/customers. You can't predict when a male might be in there or walk in when you are already in there yourself.

 No idea what the Quran says about it (never read it and don't intend to, like all the religious fairytale books), but those who talk about religious beliefs on this topic seem to overwhelmingly be from a certain demographic, which isn't Muslim.

Also, trans women are women, so why would a religious person have any issues using the same bathroom as another woman anyway?

[Boo Khaki]

4 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Also, trans women are women, so why would a religious person have any issues using the same bathroom as another woman anyway?

I think the issue there is whether the religion in question agrees with that statement or not. I mean, most trans people don't ever undergo any form of reassignment surgery, and a large proportion never embark on hormonal treatments, so if the 'forbidden' aspect is actually being in the company of 'male-bodied' people rather than 'men', then it's neither here nor there whether you or I believe transwomen are women or not. As far as the religion is concerned, they are male-bodied, and it's still forbidden to share intimate spaces with them.

[parsforlife]

21 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

I think the issue there is whether the religion in question agrees with that statement or not. I mean, most trans people don't ever undergo any form of reassignment surgery, and a large proportion never embark on hormonal treatments, so if the 'forbidden' aspect is actually being in the company of 'male-bodied' people rather than 'men', then it's neither here nor there whether you or I believe transwomen are women or not. As far as the religion is concerned, they are male-bodied, and it's still forbidden to share intimate spaces with them.

It absolutely does not depend on if someone's religion agrees with that statement.  That's the whole fucking point.

My religion says you're not really the gender you say = I'm a nasty bigot who is hiding behind religion to justify it.  

I highly highly doubt there's biological definitions in the many religious texts.  Nobody was measuring testosterone levels thousands of years ago to see what toilet you used.

Edited April 5, 2022 by parsforlife

[Boo Khaki]

7 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

It absolutely does not depend on if someone's religion agrees with that statement.  That's the whole fucking point.

My religion says you're not really the gender you say = I'm a nasty bigot who is hiding behind religion to justify it.  

I highly highly doubt there's biological definitions in the many religious texts.  Nobody was measuring testosterone levels thousands of years ago to see what toilet you used.

Of course it does if the religion in question doesn't recognise the concept of gender at all, and defines everything by birth sex. In that scenario what gender someone claims to be is wholly irrelevant, because the only thing the religion is concerned about is what biological sex they are.

[parsforlife]

2 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Of course it does if the religion in question doesn't recognise the concept of gender at all, and defines everything by birth sex. In that scenario what gender someone claims to be is wholly irrelevant, because the only thing the religion is concerned about is what biological sex they are.

Please, Please find any religious texts that directly mention gender assigned at birth and that once assigned that individual wasn't allowed to identify as different gender.  

[Boo Khaki]

Just now, parsforlife said:

Please, Please find any religious texts that directly mention gender assigned at birth and that once assigned that individual wasn't allowed to identify as different gender.  

What do you mean by 'gender assigned at birth'? Do you mean natal sex?

I don't see how the issue of what specific religious texts say is particularly relevant when what actually matters is what happens in practice.

[craigkillie]

I'm afraid that having a religion doesn't give you carte blanche to discriminate against people.

[Boo Khaki]

15 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I'm afraid that having a religion doesn't give you carte blanche to discriminate against people.

No, but religious exemptions to law do, which is what I think would inevitably happen, again, if someone tried to foist unisex facilities on Muslims/mosques.

[coprolite]

Looks like the lazy assumption that Islam is the problem here might not be accurate:

(from hrc. Org) 

"As early as 1988, gender reassignment surgery was declared acceptable under Islamic law by scholars at Egypt’s Al-Azhar, the world’s oldest Islamic university. In Iran, in 1987, Ayatollah Khomeini declared transgender surgical operations allowable. The basis for this attitude of acceptance is the belief that a person is born transgender but chooses to be homosexual, making homosexuality a sin. Nevertheless, many transgender Muslims after reassignment surgery suffer rejection, socially and culturally, in their own communities due to their remaining in their place of origin. If one is unable to relocate to another region where they are not known, they often suffer verbal and physical violence."

 

 

[Dons_1988]

This may be interpreted as being incendiary/contrarian but it’s really not meant to be, because none of this really affects me in anyway and as stated in this thread before then people should be free to live however they choose, who really cares. 

However, with regards to the statement ‘trans women are women’, I am 99% there but the reason I wouldn’t say that unequivocally is that if I was still a single man and I were to meet a trans woman then I am fairly sure I would make the distinction between women and trans women when it came to dating. Does that make me a bigot? Possibly? I’m not really sure. 

But I couldn’t claim to be fully committed to the statement trans women are women in certain circumstances. 

[Bairnardo]

This may be interpreted as being incendiary/contrarian but it’s really not meant to be, because none of this really affects me in anyway and as stated in this thread before then people should be free to live however they choose, who really cares. 
However, with regards to the statement ‘trans women are women’, I am 99% there but the reason I wouldn’t say that unequivocally is that if I was still a single man and I were to meet a trans woman then I am fairly sure I would make the distinction between women and trans women when it came to dating. Does that make me a bigot? Possibly? I’m not really sure. 
But I couldn’t claim to be fully committed to the statement trans women are women in certain circumstances. 

I see what you are saying here and I get it. I have posted before on the complexity of the trans debate, and how the general population aren't really ready to be told their gender isn't a thing at all.

And this is where I think the seemingly endless number of people (whose heart is generally in the right place) who steam into social media debates and pile ons over stuff like this because its easy dont actually help matters.

Your average person probably won't know anyone who is transgender. If you tell said average person that if they meet a trans person, get along with them, then suddenly decide to take it no further because their genitals don't match up with their assumptions, that they are a bigot thats not going to get much in the way of pu lic support. It also plays right into the hands of the bigots for me.

We need to make sure people aren't discriminated against first and foremost, from the top down.

We just need to get away from this mentality as a society that other people's choices are some of our business.

[VincentGuerin]

20 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This may be interpreted as being incendiary/contrarian but it’s really not meant to be, because none of this really affects me in anyway and as stated in this thread before then people should be free to live however they choose, who really cares. 

However, with regards to the statement ‘trans women are women’, I am 99% there but the reason I wouldn’t say that unequivocally is that if I was still a single man and I were to meet a trans woman then I am fairly sure I would make the distinction between women and trans women when it came to dating. Does that make me a bigot? Possibly? I’m not really sure. 

But I couldn’t claim to be fully committed to the statement trans women are women in certain circumstances. 

'Trans women are women' has rapidly become one of these things that you get an online brick to the napper for even hinting at questioning, but I would recoil from the idea of having sex with a trans women. Would many posters on here honestly not? And if not, then what does the word 'woman' actually mean to them? So, I agree with you that it's not the blanket statement some people want to use it as.

Also, in the era of identity being a gateway to what you can and can't have a view on, I've heard men saying 'trans women are women' taken to task by women asking who they think they are to say that.

So, either way, you get a virtual brick to the face. I couldn't give a f**k how someone wants to live, but these blanket statements rarely actually work in reality.

[Bairnardo]

'Trans women are women' has rapidly become one of these things that you get an online brick to the napper for even hinting at questioning, but I would recoil from the idea of having sex with a trans women. Would many posters on here honestly not? And if not, then what does the word 'woman' actually mean to them? So, I agree with you that it's not the blanket statement some people want to use it as.
Also, in the era of identity being a gateway to what you can and can't have a view on, I've heard men saying 'trans women are women' taken to task by women asking who they think they are to say that.
So, either way, you get a virtual brick to the face. I couldn't give a f**k how someone wants to live, but these blanket statements rarely actually work in reality.

I think there has been a lot of sensible discussion on the subject on here (despite the weirdo alias lads that continually haunt the politics forum) over a couple of threads in recent years including one on the way Caster Semenya has been treated... But I would never dream of getting into the conversation on social media, especially under my real name. Way, way too toxic.

Any discussion where you REALLY have to watch what you say because people are actively trying to trap eachother so they can scream BIGOT isn't worth getting into.

[VincentGuerin]

4 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Any discussion where you REALLY have to watch what you say because people are actively trying to trap eachother so they can scream BIGOT isn't worth getting into.
 

Aye. Asking for trouble. This kind of stuff comes up in my work quite often, basically because we've often got hee haw to do so just talk about what's in the news. I'd probably not say out loud in the office that I wouldn't have sex with a trans woman, even though the vast majority of men probably agree with me. Not worth the possibility of hassle.

I'm not sure it's an issue there is an answer to at the moment. Trans people should be able to just get on with their lives, but in a society with conflicting interests and views, it's not that simple. And all the 'trans women are women' doesn't change that.

I'm not a religious person, but the arguments about ignoring religious people's views don't work, because religious people exist and are part of our society too. I'd imagine a far bigger part than the trans community. And 'I think Group X's views are stupid so we should ignore them' is a dangerous path for a society to go down. Some people will probably take issue even with that, so I'm probably going to slowly back away now.

What about those World Cup qualifiers, eh?

 

[Bairnardo]

Aye. Asking for trouble. This kind of stuff comes up in my work quite often, basically because we've often got hee haw to do so just talk about what's in the news. I'd probably not say out loud in the office that I wouldn't have sex with a trans woman, even though the vast majority of men probably agree with me. Not worth the possibility of hassle.
I'm not sure it's an issue there is an answer to at the moment. Trans people should be able to just get on with their lives, but in a society with conflicting interests and views, it's not that simple. And all the 'trans women are women' doesn't change that.
I'm not a religious person, but the arguments about ignoring religious people's views don't work, because religious people exist and are part of our society too. I'd imagine a far bigger part than the trans community. And 'I think Group X's views are stupid so we should ignore them' is a dangerous path for a society to go down. Some people will probably take issue even with that, so I'm probably going to slowly back away now.
What about those World Cup qualifiers, eh?
 

My work is the opposite. I tend to sit back in my seat and hum internally as the numerous gammons I work with vomit out various opinions as fact, and give it "Adam and Eve no Adam and Steve hahahahaha" level chat.

It's probably for another thread, but I am either noticing it more, or it's becoming more prevalent, but the willingness of the middle aged man to speak with absolute authority on subject they have researched zero about, in some cases dismissing out of hand people who have is on the rise.

I recently pointed some gammons in the direction of the MSF assessment that Britain has become one of the most refugee unfriendly countries in the world, and they just said "naw that's not true what about Israel hahahaha your talking shite".

I was blown away.

[Dons_1988]

Will save myself quoting @Bairnardo and @VincentGuerin but I broadly agree. 

I had second thoughts about even posting that originally, feeling it wasn’t really worth the potential grief, but I don’t think it’s that much of a thought crime. 

I absolutely support peoples rights to just get on with their lives but I’m not sure beating people over the head with trans women are women is that helpful, particularly if you can’t remain committed to that when push comes to shove (not accusing anyone on here of that). I couldn’t come battering into the debate saying that because I’m not committed to it if it really affected me.