The Gender Debate

[Bairnardo]

Tell her to keep her head down, she'll be out soon.

You only do two days in this bizarre, fantasy penis jail.....

[Busta Nut]

On 29/01/2022 at 20:27, Kenneth840 said:

Would you be happy for your daughter to be in a cell with a female that had a penis?

What if it's a big rubber wan attached to a strappy pair of pants?

Is that ok?

[jamamafegan]

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

Declared ineligible. Correct decision?

[Florentine_Pogen]

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Is Kenneth one of these auld lunatics from the Family Party or whatever it’s called. The one with the election flyers promoting stuff like ending fuel poverty, improved local library services, greater access to green spaces for all and the compulsory chemical castration of homosexuals and travellers? 

He's an Albadad

[101]

44 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

Declared ineligible. Correct decision?

I think in sport it's a really difficult call, the people who are champions tend to have physical advantages like Phelps being the extreme example. So if her testosterone is under the required levels then seems unfair. Maybe going forward there should be a grading of events like in disability sports rather than just men and women.

[Donathan]

37 minutes ago, 101 said:

I think in sport it's a really difficult call, the people who are champions tend to have physical advantages like Phelps being the extreme example. So if her testosterone is under the required levels then seems unfair. Maybe going forward there should be a grading of events like in disability sports rather than just men and women.

Just have separate categories for trans men and trans women, that would solve a lot of problems. 

[carpetmonster]

1 hour ago, jamamafegan said:

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

Declared ineligible. Correct decision?

Huh. The Graun report reckons UCI says she's ineligible because her registration as a male cyclist hasn't expired, which the BBC report doesn't mention whatsoever. 

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/mar/30/trans-cyclist-emily-bridges-banned-from-racing-at-british-meeting-after-uci-ruling

[Satoshi]

For me, there is a great disparity between the amout of coverage this issue receives and what its actual impact is.

Regarding transgender atheletes, I don't think there has ever been any evidence that someone has gone through a massively, life changing process, to do slightly better in a sport which won't make them any money anyway. Rather, it's more likely they are doing something they would be doing anyway and just happen to also be athletes but the latter is disconnected to the former. As to whether they should compete, this could be considered on a case by case basis with certain rules and parameters in place.

Regarding transgender people in prison, we should be seeking to make both male and female prisons safer for vulnerable people (rather than drastically cutting their funding and sending more people to them).

With regards to the use of hormone suppressants on pre teens - this is a runiously complex issue that nobody can solve. It's best left for doctors to advise - but no doubt they will get it wrong sometimes too.

For me, people who are transgender are incredibly, almost ludicrously, brave. And fair play to them for that, what they are doing is neither easy on their body nor in a societal sense (although the latter is getting better).

Hope they live a good life.

Overall, the transgender debate is very much distraction politics to me, it affects a very small portion of the overall population.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Satoshi

[Hillonearth]

39 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

For me, there is a great disparity between the amout of coverage this issue receives and what its actual impact is.

Regarding transgender atheletes, I don't think there has ever been any evidence that someone has gone through a massively, life changing process, to do slightly better in a sport which won't make them any money anyway. Rather, it's more likely they are doing something they would be doing anyway and just happen to also be athletes but the latter is disconnected to the former. As to whether they should compete, this could be considered on a case by case basis with certain rules and parameters in place.

Regarding transgender people in prison, we should be seeking to make both male and female prisons safer for vulnerable people (rather than drastically cutting their funding and sending more people to them).

With regards to the use of hormone suppressants on pre teens - this is a runiously complex issue that nobody can solve. It's best left for doctors to advise - but no doubt they will get it long too.

For me, people who are transgender are incredibly, almost ludicrously, brave. And fair play to them for that, what they are doing is niether easy on their body nor in a societal sense (although the latter is getting better).

Hope they live a good life.

Overall, the transgender debate is very much distraction politics to me, it affects a very small portion of the overall population.

I remember watching that documentary Next Goal Wins about the American Samoan football team and being quite inspired by the way everyone involved interacted with the trans centre-half...culturally we've probably got a lot to learn from some wee islands in the Pacific where the whole thing is completely accepted.

The toilets and prisons things are just manufactured outrage against a tiny and already-marginalised cohort of people. Sport is the only thorny issue because men. and by extension recently transitioned women have a well-established 10%+ plus advantage in almost all sports which might not sound like much but which in reality means current female world records in most running events for example are annually broken by into five figures of men and boys. I suppose the only way to maintain a level playing field which is fair to born female competitors is to have trans athletes wait until their bodies have deandrogynised and testosterone levels have dropped to female levels. That however is also intrinsically unfair on them, as it will rob them of probably several years of their career...there doesn't seem to be an easy answer on this one unfortunately.

 

[ICTChris]

2 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

I suppose the only way to maintain a level playing field which is fair to born female competitors is to have trans athletes wait until their bodies have deandrogynised and testosterone levels have dropped to female levels. That however is also intrinsically unfair on them, as it will rob them of probably several years of their career...there doesn't seem to be an easy answer on this one unfortunately.

 

Does this ever happen?  If someone has gone through male puberty then the chances of them ever completely losing their male advantages are low.  Even if testosterone is reduced to female levels advantages remain.  Testosterone levels, when tested, are often notably low for some top level athletes for a variety of reasons (overtraining, drug use etc).  There is even a name for the condition of highly trained men having low testosterone levels - Exercise Hypogonadal Male Condition.  So measuring testosterone levels is not a great marker of advantage or performance. 

[Hillonearth]

10 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Does this ever happen?  If someone has gone through male puberty then the chances of them ever completely losing their male advantages are low.  Even if testosterone is reduced to female levels advantages remain.  Testosterone levels, when tested, are often notably low for some top level athletes for a variety of reasons (overtraining, drug use etc).  There is even a name for the condition of highly trained men having low testosterone levels - Exercise Hypogonadal Male Condition.  So measuring testosterone levels is not a great marker of advantage or performance. 

And of course, likewise some born female athletes naturally produce higher levels of testosterone than others - it's almost certainly a crude benchmark to use. Like I say, no easy answers that don't disadvantage someone unfortunately.

[ICTChris]

22 minutes ago, Hillonearth said:

And of course, likewise some born female athletes naturally produce higher levels of testosterone than others - it's almost certainly a crude benchmark to use. Like I say, no easy answers that don't disadvantage someone unfortunately.

I think in men practically all cases of high testosterone is due to taking steroids or other PEDs.  It's highly unusual to have clinically significant high testosterone without that.  It's a bit different in women, they often get higher testosterone levels due to medical conditions, such as polycystic ovarian syndrome.  Of course, if women take similar PEDs they will get higher levels though.  Athletes know how to mask the use of these drugs though. 

I don't really know how to deal with transgender athletes to be honest.  There is no solution that will keep everyone happy.

Edited March 31, 2022 by ICTChris

[Dawson Park Boy]

2 hours ago, ICTChris said:

I think in men practically all cases of high testosterone is due to taking steroids or other PEDs.  It's highly unusual to have clinically significant high testosterone without that.  It's a bit different in women, they often get higher testosterone levels due to medical conditions, such as polycystic ovarian syndrome.  Of course, if women take similar PEDs they will get higher levels though.  Athletes know how to mask the use of these drugs though. 

I don't really know how to deal with transgender athletes to be honest.  There is no solution that will keep everyone happy.

Keeping people happy is the wrong approach entirely.

Its a case of fairness.

Having transgender men competing in women’s sport against born women is just wrong.

[carpetmonster]

9 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

Keeping people happy is the wrong approach entirely.

Its a case of fairness.

Having transgender men competing in women’s sport against born women is just wrong.

Transgender men are born women. 

[Jambomo]

It’s a really difficult situation and I don’t envy people having to make the decisions or rules around this.

Even within transgender people there are variances though. There will be women such as Emily who have grown up, gone through puberty and trained for the sport as a man, and blocking testosterone now doesn’t undo the biological advantage all those years of male development brings. Then you have transgender people who may have taken puberty blockers and in fact don’t necessarily have those biological advantages at all. They aren’t one set of like people or people with the same circumstances. 

Sport is really the only area I feel has a real question around it. The rest is just a moral panic created by people who don’t want to try to find ways of helping support transgender people.

I do feel frustrated though that there is a very definite cohort who attempt to silence women in this debate, by basically branding those who feel there is an issue as a bigot or being against transgender people in some way.

Boxing or combat sports is the obvious one that comes to mind, there are weigh divisions and gender divisions for a reason and it could be potentially dangerous to let a transgender female box against a cis one, in the same way a heavyweight isn’t boxing a lightweight opponent. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

37 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Transgender men are born women. 

Sorry- my mistake.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Worth pointing out the girl all this fuss is about didnt even medal in most of the events competed in. 
The fact that so many men here and in politics in general see this as a cause to out themselves as horrendous bigots over is quite interesting to me.

[carpetmonster]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Worth pointing out the girl all this fuss is about didnt even medal in most of the events competed in. 
The fact that so many men here and in politics in general see this as a cause to out themselves as horrendous bigots over is quite interesting to me.

See also Laurel Hubbard, the NZ weightlifter who became the first transwoman to compete at the Olympics; the ‘gender critical’ lobby went awfully quiet on her after she placed rank last. 

[GNU_Linux]

Utah has passed a bill effective July 1 bar legal challenges barring trans youth from competing in high school sports overriding a veto by governor Spencer Cox (R). Of 75k athletes a whopping four individuals are trans & Cox (R) cited the numbers of individuals, the 86% suicidality & 56% suicide attempt rate of trans youth in his veto letter. Cox is one of two Republican governors so far to buck the trend by vetoing such a bill the other being Eric Holcomb of Indiana.