The Gender Debate

[Boo Khaki]

Just now, Detournement said:

There's not even a widely agreed definition of being trans with some people believing that they are born with an innate gender (idiotic) and some people believing that they are socialised into a particular gender (correct).

There doesn't really need to be an agreed definition of 'trans'. It's abundantly clear that many people simply reject gender stereotypes, whether that's because they see gender as a social construct or not is neither here nor there. The fact is they don't conform, and that alone is enough to place them under a broad 'trans' umbrella. Whether they are 'transgender' in the old-fashioned sense of being 'transsexual', transvestites, gender non-conforming, view themselves as non-binary, or even if intersex people want to consider themselves as part of a trans group, that's entirely up to them. The point being, hating people simply because they don't conform is phobic.

[Boo Khaki]

6 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

No it's not, that could only be the case if the SNP only had one policy. And it's supported by three of the four opposition parties anyway.

I'm perfectly comfortable with all the views I have expressed here but this debate is toxic and based on fundamental dishonesty so I will bow out for now.

Right, so no answer at all for the fact that you claim Self-Id is wildly unpopular, but can't account for the fact that our democratic outcomes don't reflect that in any way, and in fact suggest the opposite?

It's often claimed by Gender Criticals that this is a massive issue that the majority are opposed to, yet the only yardstick by which you can measure both the scale and strength of this supposed opposition suggests that -

1. It's an issue that most people really aren't all that concerned about at all

2. As you yourself point out, most are voting for pro Self-ID parties in any case, so either approve of it or don't care enough for it to alter their choice

So which is it? 

[Detournement]

4 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

The point being, hating people simply because they don't conform is phobic.

I agree with that but this argument is about more than opinions and feelings. The most important issue whether children should be given hormones to block puberty or now.

Given that we know that peer groups and social media can cause psychogenic illness and that diagnoses of schizophrenia are rapidly increasing it doesn't seem like a great idea to give children serious medical procedures based solely on their opinions of themselves.

[RH33]

There has been so much time and money spent on something that impacts a tiny minority of the population. Those who are genuinely impacted should have it easier to be recognised as they wish to be. It will have zero impact on 99.99% people's lives. 

The concerns about increased violence against woman are using it as an excuse to cover Thier predujice. 

I don't have statistics to hand but I'm sure most male on female violence is caused by someone known to the woman.

 

 

[HalfCutNinja]

10 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Right, so no answer at all for the fact that you claim Self-Id is wildly unpopular, but can't account for the fact that our democratic outcomes don't reflect that in any way, and in fact suggest the opposite?

It's often claimed by Gender Criticals that this is a massive issue that the majority are opposed to, yet the only yardstick by which you can measure both the scale and strength of this supposed opposition suggests that -

1. It's an issue that most people really aren't all that concerned about at all

2. As you yourself point out, most are voting for pro Self-ID parties in any case, so either approve of it or don't care enough for it to alter their choice

So which is it? 

You're being deliberately obtuse. I already explained. People don't have a choice. It's either a party that supports self ID or the Tories. And this legislation passed today. We haven't had an election since then have we? You also have no idea how many vote SNP whilst holding their nose.

It's an issue most don't know the details and implications of and when they do polls show overwhelming opposition. 

I don't know what point you're making or what angle of gotcha you think you have here and don't care. I said I was bowing out for now, it's very rude to then try to suck me back in. I don't care. 

 

 

[carpetmonster]

13 minutes ago, Detournement said:

I agree with that but this argument is about more than opinions and feelings. The most important issue whether children should be given hormones to block puberty or now.

You can't get a GRC in Scotland until you're 16, so this is literally nothing to do with this argument.

[Binos]

Incredible our parliament spending it's time devoted to this 

With multiple crises currently hitting all walks of life in the country 

[Detournement]

Just now, carpetmonster said:

You can't get a GRC in Scotland until you're 16, so this is literally nothing to do with this argument.

The Tavistock clinic court cases show that medical professionals are led by social norms when deciding whether or not carry out these procedures in children.

[DA Baracus]

2 minutes ago, Binos said:

Incredible our parliament spending it's time devoted to this 

With multiple crises currently hitting all walks of life in the country 

Aye, because only one thing can happen at once. More than one thing definitely can't happen at the same time.

Also, why do you think it took so long?

[carpetmonster]

1 minute ago, Detournement said:

The Tavistock clinic court cases show that medical professionals are led by social norms when deciding whether or not carry out these procedures in children.

For someone who doesn't trust the MSM you sure buy any old shite the Telegraph throws out when it's something you like the sound of, don't you?

[DA Baracus]

Surprised* to see that those on their nth alias are using 'arguments' they know are nonsense and are repeating repeatedly refuted 'points'.

 

*Not surprised at all. These tedious trolls know what they're doing. It's just sad. I'd love to see them have to sit down in front of their family and friends and explain their trolling and why they think trying to make the world a little worse is a good thing.

[Detournement]

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/may/02/tavistock-trust-whistleblower-david-bell-transgender-children-gids

Quote

There is anger on both sides of the debate. But given his politics – Bell describes himself to me as a “Corbyn-supporting Jew” – he has been most shocked by the reluctance of the left to engage with the issues. “They think this is to do with being liberal, rather than with concerns about the care of children. Mermaids and Stonewall [the charities for trans children and LGBTQ+ rights] have made people afraid even of listening to another view.” It surprises him that the left is unwilling to consider the role played by big pharma. In the US, a journal that published a paper about the effect of puberty blockers on suicide risk recently had to disclose that one of its co-authors received a stipend from the manufacturer of another drug.

 

Edited December 22, 2022 by Detournement

[Londonwell]

Dip into the politics section, see Detournement making an arse of himself, dip back out. See you this time next year.

[Boo Khaki]

15 minutes ago, HalfCutNinja said:

You're being deliberately obtuse. I already explained. People don't have a choice. It's either a party that supports self ID or the Tories. And this legislation passed today. We haven't had an election since then have we? You also have no idea how many vote SNP whilst holding their nose.

It's an issue most don't know the details and implications of and when they do polls show overwhelming opposition. 

I don't know what point you're making or what angle of gotcha you think you have here and don't care. I said I was bowing out for now, it's very rude to then try to suck me back in. I don't care. 

 

 

We've had two elections since this became stated policy, the outcomes of neither of which suggest that it's the major bone of contention GC's are claiming. We've also had several previous elections since the advent of GRC, none of which resulted in a pushback determined to overturn it.

If people 'don't know the implications' then that can only be through wilful ignorance, as it's no secret whatsoever that GRC reform was on the cards, or what the propositions were. Perhaps, if it really is as contentious as you are claiming, people would do well to enlighten themselves. But then again, if the majority are living in ignorance then that in itself is surely the definition of it being a minority interest.

I'm puzzled at your admonishment for 'sucking you back in'. You are under no obligation to respond and I can't compel you to. You were the one who felt it necessary to pipe up in response to one of my posts, so running off with your fingers in your ears just because I've challenged you does come across as a bit infantile though. I would appreciate it if you'd offer some sort of explanation for your entirely contradictory and irreconcilable claims about public attitudes to Self-ID though, unless of course, you are happy to chuck in the towel and admit that you've based your conclusion on nothing but a couple of meaningless, and no doubt contrived, polls.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Boo Khaki

[HalfCutNinja]

3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

We've had two elections since this became stated policy, the outcomes of neither of which suggest that it's the major bone of contention GC's are claiming. We've also had several previous elections since the advent of GRC, none of which resulted in a pushback determined to overturn it.

If people 'don't know the implications' then that can only be through wilful ignorance, as it's no secret whatsoever that GRC reform was on the cards, or what the propositions were. Perhaps, if it really is as contentious as you are claiming, people would do well to enlighten themselves. But then again, if the majority are living in ignorance then that in itself is surely the definition of it being a minority interest.

I'm puzzled at your admonishment for 'sucking you back in'. You are under no obligation to respond and I can't compel you to. You were the one who felt it necessary to pipe up in response to one of my posts, so running off with your fingers in your ears just because I've challenged you does come across as a bit infantile though. I would appreciate it if you'd offer some sort of explanation for your entirely contradictory and irreconcilable claims about public attitudes to Self-ID though, unless of course, you are happy to chuck in the towel and admit that you've based your conclusion on nothing but a couple of meaningless, and no doubt contrived, polls.

Tldr 

[Boo Khaki]

14 minutes ago, Binos said:

Incredible our parliament spending it's time devoted to this 

With multiple crises currently hitting all walks of life in the country 

Three days out of an entire session, when it's a manifesto commitment that was already delayed due to Covid 19.

Parliaments are capable of dealing with more than one thing concurrently. I doubt the economic crisis is going to significantly worsen purely because MSP's stayed back late in the chamber two nights on the trot.

[Guest Jedi]

48 minutes ago, Binos said:

Incredible our parliament spending it's time devoted to this 

With multiple crises currently hitting all walks of life in the country 

That's because the GRA is.a much bigger priority for the SNP/Green govt than public sector pay, the state of the NHS, or the cost of living

[Binos]

1 minute ago, Jedi said:

That's because the GRA is.a much bigger priority for the SNP/Green govt than public sector pay, the state of the NHS, or the cost of living

Or the energy crisis,  in an energy rich country 

[Binos]

35 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

Three days out of an entire session, when it's a manifesto commitment that was already delayed due to Covid 19.

Parliaments are capable of dealing with more than one thing concurrently. I doubt the economic crisis is going to significantly worsen purely because MSP's stayed back late in the chamber two nights on the trot.

This parliament is not 

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

I don't vote SNP anymore, but I have to give them their due here. I think they've spent quite a bit of their political credit here to get this through. Time will tell obviously, but I think it will put a small dent in their support.

Looks like JK Rowling and the Christian far right in the US are going to have to get the cheque books out again to keep this going.

I see Spain also passed something similar today.