The Gender Debate

[velo army]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

He was born with them flippers though, he didn't have them medically altered. 

Scenes when Leo Messi is stripped of his Ballons D'Ors and UCL medals.

[SweeperDee]

Being trans isn't a mental illness.

A lot of trans individuals have co-morbidities (various compulsive disorders, bipolar disorder, and other personality disorders) with body dysmorphia being an ever present condition amongst the trans population. Being trans itself is not a mental illness but the trans population have disproportionately high levels of specific disorders related to body image/gender image.

[velo army]

1 minute ago, SweeperDee said:

A lot of trans individuals have co-morbidities (various compulsive disorders, bipolar disorder, and other personality disorders) with body dysmorphia being an ever present condition amongst the trans population. Being trans itself is not a mental illness but the trans population have disproportionately high levels of specific disorders related to body image/gender image.

Well aye, but that's the result of having your own identity denied by the society you're living in. Mental illnesses don't occur in a vacuum, they are reactions to our environment.

[SweeperDee]

Well aye, but that's the result of having your own identity denied by the society you're living in. Mental illnesses don't occur in a vacuum, they are reactions to our environment.

Mental illnesses are very rarely brought on purely due to environmental stressors; genetics play a significant role also.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Would you give consent for your 8 year old to be prescribed puberty blockers?

 

[velo army]

1 minute ago, SweeperDee said:

Mental illnesses are very rarely brought on purely due to environmental stressors; genetics play a significant role also.

I don't believe there's evidence of that. As far as I'm aware the genetic component has been theorised and, at best, exaggerated. 

Now we know more about the effects of trauma on the brain and how our coping mechanisms present as harmful behaviours it paints a clearer picture of what we call mental illness being early responses to environmental stresses. 

[SweeperDee]

Would you give consent for your 8 year old to be prescribed puberty blockers?
 

Never in a million years. The amount of pushback for this amongst the psychiatric community in Scotland is huge, but they keep getting referred children as young as 8 (sometimes younger) presenting with dysmorphic/identity disorders. There’s nobility in the idea that everyone should be whoever they want to be, but is it coming at the cost of messing up someones brain chemistry to the point they end up with serious issues later on in life? Research will provide the answer to this in less than a decade.

[carpetmonster]

4 minutes ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Would you give consent for your 8 year old to be prescribed puberty blockers?

 

Maybe. My kid has a friend who’s been trans since she was 4 or 5 - she’s now 8 - so I can’t imagine letting her go through puberty as a boy is going to her mental health a great deal of good. Puberty blockers wear off and puberty recommences after about 6 months off them - should she decide otherwise - so if I was her parents, I probably would. 

[SweeperDee]

I don't believe there's evidence of that. As far as I'm aware the genetic component has been theorised and, at best, exaggerated. 
Now we know more about the effects of trauma on the brain and how our coping mechanisms present as harmful behaviours it paints a clearer picture of what we call mental illness being early responses to environmental stresses. 

Depression that occurs earlier in life is definitely more genetic based, instead of being caused by external stressors.

Trans individuals report experiences of gender/body dysmorphia and associated negative emotions as young as 5-7 years old (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8766261/)

[Albus Bulbasaur]

17 hours ago, carpetmonster said:

Maybe. My kid has a friend who’s been trans since she was 4 or 5 - she’s now 8 - so I can’t imagine letting her go through puberty as a boy is going to her mental health a great deal of good. Puberty blockers wear off and puberty recommences after about 6 months off them - should she decide otherwise - so if I was her parents, I probably would. 

I don't have kids and probably sound old fashioned here but how could you possibly tell a 4 year old is trans? 

I can't imagine they really have much of a grasp on complex gender discussions at that age. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by Albus Bulbasaur

[Thorongil]

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I don't have kids and probably sound old fashioned here but how could you possibly tell a 4 year old is trans? 

I can't imagine they really have much of a grasp on complex gender discussions at that age. 

A difficult question, studiously avoided.

[carpetmonster]

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I don't have kids and probably sound old fashioned here but how could you possibly tell a 4 year old is trans? 

I can't imagine they really have much of a grasp on complex gender discussions at that age. 

I wasn’t privy to the discussions but AFAIK she basically told her parents she was a girl. She’s given herself a girl’s name (I don’t know her deadname and nor would I ever ask) she’s dressed and presented as a girl for her entire time at school (3 years now). I’m not sure that my kid has any countenance that she was assigned male at birth.
 

I can’t imagine it was just a case of ‘mum, dad, I’m a girl’ and it was a fair bit harder than that - they’re really sound people, been out with them socially a few times - but if it was a phase or a bit, then she’s *fucking* committed to it, so I’m pretty confident she is indeed trans. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by carpetmonster

[Albus Bulbasaur]

5 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

I wasn’t privy to the discussions but AFAIK she basically told her parents she was a girl. She’s given herself a girl’s name (I don’t know her deadname and nor would I ever ask) she’s dressed and presented as a girl for her entire time at school (3 years now). I’m not sure that my kid has any countenance that she was assigned male at birth.
 

I can’t imagine it was just a case of ‘mum, dad, I’m a girl’ and it was a fair bit harder than that - they’re really sound people, been out with them socially a few times - but if it was a phase or a bit, then she’s *fucking* committed to it, so I’m pretty confident she is indeed trans. 

Cheers for the answer. As I said before as someone without kids it's very hard for me to picture or really form a valid opinion on rasing a child in such hypotheticals. My initial thought is it does seem quite young but I'm open to the fact I'm uninformed on the matter. 

[carpetmonster]

19 hours ago, velo army said:

I don't believe there's evidence of that. As far as I'm aware the genetic component has been theorised and, at best, exaggerated. 

Now we know more about the effects of trauma on the brain and how our coping mechanisms present as harmful behaviours it paints a clearer picture of what we call mental illness being early responses to environmental stresses. 

There’s an excellent book, The Primal Wound, by Nancy Verrier, that deals with this as it relates to at-birth adoptees, of which I am one. The hypothesis is that you’ve put a human thru the most traumatic event of its entire life by removing it from its mother but at the time, that human has no way of vocalizing it, and it manifests itself in various behaviors and personality traits as the child matures. 
 

It’s been 15-ish years since I read it, but I went into it thinking ‘shrink bollocks, my childhood was fine and they’re not pegging me off this.’ And then got to ‘I do that tho. Yeah, that sounds like me. And that’. 

[velo army]

1 hour ago, carpetmonster said:

There’s an excellent book, The Primal Wound, by Nancy Verrier, that deals with this as it relates to at-birth adoptees, of which I am one. The hypothesis is that you’ve put a human thru the most traumatic event of its entire life by removing it from its mother but at the time, that human has no way of vocalizing it, and it manifests itself in various behaviors and personality traits as the child matures. 
 

It’s been 15-ish years since I read it, but I went into it thinking ‘shrink bollocks, my childhood was fine and they’re not pegging me off this.’ And then got to ‘I do that tho. Yeah, that sounds like me. And that’. 

I read the same book a couple of years ago. Aye it's powerful stuff. I never went through the "terrible twos" phase and never thought a lot about it til that book when I realised that I had learned early on that my sense of safety was conditional on being pleasing (she called it "premature ego development"). I didn't have the words for it but we develop survival strategies before we develop language. The "false self" strategy also hit very hard.

What we describe as "mental illness" are really a confluence of such survival strategies and are best, in my view, treated as such. Trans children will receive messages early on that who they really are isn't welcome, or is outright bad. Children process that as "if I am who I really am I'll die" because we depend on our parents for our survival. 

There isn't a lot if evidence to support a genetic link to mental illness. There are exponents of the theory of epigenetics which says that the impact of trauma is passed down through DNA ("ancestral trauma") and it makes sense, but iirc it was hard for the studies to control for things like parenting strategies. It will always remain a theory imo. Even if it was true it just seems too reductive given what we know about the impact of trauma on brain function, thought patterns and now stuff like immune responses (psychosomatic responses as autoimmune diseases, for instance) it's more constructive to view mental illness as a survival strategy which is counterproductive rather than the way you just are.

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2022 by velo army

[SweeperDee]

I read the same book a couple of years ago. Aye it's powerful stuff. I never went through the "terrible twos" phase and never thought a lot about it til that book when I realised that I had learned early on that my sense of safety was conditional on being pleasing (she called it "premature ego development"). I didn't have the words for it but we develop survival strategies before we develop language. The "false self" strategy also hit very hard.
What we describe as "mental illness" are really a confluence of such survival strategies and are best, in my view, treated as such. Trans children will receive messages early on that who they really are isn't welcome, or is outright bad. Children process that as "if I am who I really am I'll die" because we depend on our parents for our survival. 
There isn't a lot if evidence to support a genetic link to mental illness. There are exponents of the theory of epigenetics which says that the impact of trauma is passed down through DNA ("ancestral trauma") and it makes sense, but iirc it was hard for the studies to control for things like parenting strategies. It will always remain a theory imo. Even if it was true it just seems too reductive given what we know about the impact of trauma on brain function, thought patterns and now stuff like immune responses (psychosomatic responses as autoimmune diseases, for instance) it's more constructive to view mental illness as a survival strategy which is counterproductive rather than the way you just are.
 
 
 

Do you dismiss the evolutionary basis/impacts/ramifications of certain mental illnesses completely then? And saddle it all down to environment?

[velo army]

1 hour ago, SweeperDee said:

Do you dismiss the evolutionary basis/impacts/ramifications of certain mental illnesses completely then? And saddle it all down to environment?

I think we might be talking about the same things. I thought you were meaning that the genetic thing was about mental illness being hereditary. What evolutionary basis or impacts are you talking about? 

E.T.A (rather than creating a new post).

I think we're talking at cross purposes here. What I mean by environmental factors basically amounts to childhood trauma through abandonment, rejection, abuse or even just inconsistent attachment. It is through our evolved brains (namely our amygdala) that we recognise threats to our safety and develop strategies that keep us safe. Often we see in people with mental illness (big or small) is that this adaptation isn't serving the higher purposes of the individual, but is only serving the base survival purpose.

It's not that controversial and is very much the way psychotherapy is headed. 

Anyway, you brought up the subject of mental illness and trans folk. What conclusions do you draw from young trans people being mentally ill?

Edited June 22, 2022 by velo army

[Cosmic Joe]

5 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I don't have kids and probably sound old fashioned here but how could you possibly tell a 4 year old is trans? 

I can't imagine they really have much of a grasp on complex gender discussions at that age. 

Maybe because at that age, complex gender discussions are not necessary. You are who you are, and any good parent won't complicate matters through such discussions. 

[Thorongil]

19 minutes ago, Cosmic Joe said:

Maybe because at that age, complex gender discussions are not necessary. You are who you are, and any good parent won't complicate matters through such discussions. 

All seems a bit nebulous to me. 

[Theroadlesstravelled]

I remember an article in WaPo that 84 percent of kids with gender dysphoria eventually desisted, or came to feel comfortable with their birth-assigned gender.

It’s definitely not something you can take lightly. Kids are ultimately stupid. Even adults in their early 20s are stupid.