The Gender Debate

[welshbairn]

7 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

reaching a decision manifestly in bad faith.

That's the one! At least Westminster's supposed conflicts with the ERA will have to be properly defined for a legal challenge, though maybe that's why they're getting busy trying to change the ERA. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by welshbairn

[MazzyStar]

18 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I'm on the fence re the kiddy-on parliament in Edinburgh.  It certainly needs to be reformed.  But if it can't be reformed then it certainly needs ditched.  In its current form, it's not doing what it was designed to do.

It is exactly what it was designed to be - a bourgeois parliament.

[f_c_dundee]

56 minutes ago, TxRover said:

So, effectively you are admitting that the same criteria that for years was used to promote the idea the same sex attraction was a mental health defect, and thus should be outlawed, is OK to use here now that it’s not acceptable to use there?

No, I really am not.

 

But just make up some more s***e if you want.

 

I don't remember section 28 saying same sex attraction was a mental health problem, even if some wee section of society believed that at the time. You wouldn't possibly be randomly conflating things again would you? 

 

Again I'll ask then - explain how gender dysphoria should definitely not be a mental health/medical diagnosis as it is in the UK currently, but at the same time should be getting immediate medical treatment ASAP? 

 

 

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

16 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

You'd posted multiple times since then, it smacked very much of bad manners. 

James Esses? Aye, he's a full time transphobe now. His GoFundMe's sitting at 115 grand; it's nothing if not lucrative. 

ETA - I hope his brief gets him a better result than they did when they represented Allison Bailey and turned 500k worth of crowdfunded dosh into a 26k payout. Well, I don't, but hey ho. 

Bad manners yer arse. 

 

As I said, clearly I can't keep up with it all, doing my best like!

 

Clue, it's not about the money.

 

These crowd funded cases are majority supported by £10, 20 50 here and there from a lot of concerned people. 

 

The cases are about the law and not getting a payout. 

 

James Esses terrible crime was to suggest that people should be allowed (not even forced or required ffs!) to have psychotherapy or counselling to explore the reasons that they might be feeling unhappy in their body.  Which I'm guessing you'd have us believe is 'conversation therapy' and mental health professionals shouldn't be permitted to do it. 

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Bad manners yer arse. 

 

As I said, clearly I can't keep up with it all, doing my best like!

 

Clue, it's not about the money.

Well, no, because the crowdfunder goes for legal fees. However the publicity has led young Jimbo to have his face all over the Daily Mail, write for the Spectator, write for Spiked...oh hang on, except Marion Millar's crowdfunder, she seems to have done a bunk with all the cash. 

5 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

These crowd funded cases are majority supported by £10, 20 50 here and there from a lot of concerned people. 

 

The cases are about the law and not getting a payout. 

Fairly handy, in Allison's case, given she got rinsed. Still, she's retiring from the bar at age 53, so she can't be too short of a bob. 

 

5 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

James Esses terrible crime was to suggest that people should be allowed (not even forced or required ffs!) to have psychotherapy or counselling to explore the reasons that they might be feeling unhappy in their body.  Which I'm guessing you'd have us believe is 'conversation therapy' and mental health professionals shouldn't be permitted to do it. 

This James Esses? This James Esses who's calling Joe Biden a 'dangerous ideologue' because Joey reckons trans folks are 'deserving of dignity, respect and support'? Aye, he's a wee gem. Just concerns. Genuine concerns. Not transphobic. Definitely not. 

 

 

[f_c_dundee]

7 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Well, no, because the crowdfunder goes for legal fees. However the publicity has led young Jimbo to have his face all over the Daily Mail, write for the Spectator, write for Spiked...oh hang on, except Marion Millar's crowdfunder, she seems to have done a bunk with all the cash. 

Fairly handy, in Allison's case, given she got rinsed. Still, she's retiring from the bar at age 53, so she can't be too short of a bob. 

 

This James Esses? This James Esses who's calling Joe Biden a 'dangerous ideologue' because Joey reckons trans folks are 'deserving of dignity, respect and support'? Aye, he's a wee gem. Just concerns. Genuine concerns. Not transphobic. Definitely not. 

 

 

Pretty much agree with James Esses there to be fair. It's not transphobic just to disagree with you, you know?

 

Edited to add that no one is saying go about disrespecting trans people but that's not what Esses has said and you know it. 

 

Biden totally wrote that tweet himself I'm sure as well. 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by f_c_dundee

[Ad Lib]

40 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

That's the one! At least Westminster's supposed conflicts with the ERA will have to be properly defined for a legal challenge, though maybe that's why they're getting busy trying to change the ERA. 

Bad faith is astonishingly difficult to prove to the legal standard.

[carpetmonster]

18 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

Pretty much agree with James Esses there to be fair. It's not transphobic just to disagree with you, you know?

However it is transphobic - given that the entire concept of gender dysphoria is that one is 'born into the wrong body' - to suggest 'this is a movement changing kids into something they're not'. It's furthermore fearmongering of the worst kind by bringing up kids - Biden hadn't - and using frightening language around 'irreversible medical procedures'. Transitioning does not have to *be* medical and kids are not being given irreversible surgeries. 

18 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Edited to add that no one is saying go about disrespecting trans people but that's not what Esses has said and you know it. 

No, I don't. 

18 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Biden totally wrote that tweet himself I'm sure as well. 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think all that many politicians write their own tweets. He probably signed off on it. I'd imagine that's protocol so whatever staffer does do them can't get steaming and bang out "DeSantis is a big fanny who's got a cheek banning drag performances in Florida when its most famous resident is slathered in orange make up that would frighten a panto dame" all over the official POTUS account. I'd take Joe Biden's word over yours tho. 

Edited April 12, 2023 by carpetmonster
grammar

[welshbairn]

52 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

There are entire books written on intensity of scrutiny and reasonableness/rationality review.

This isn't (really) the Clapham omnibus test. That's the legal test about whether "the reasonable person" would reach a particular point of view or do a particular thing.

This is essentially a Wednesbury unreasonableness situation. The court will ask whether Alister Jack's grounds for believing the statutory test was met was within the range of responses someone in his position could plausibly have arrived at without taking leave of their senses, taking/failing to take into account relevant/irrelevant considerations, or reaching a decision manifestly in bad faith.

Given Jack's statement of reasons, I'd say the Section 35 fails. It's not about whether the GRR bill is reasonable after all, it's about their claims of conflict with the ERA, written down in the statement of reasons.

 

 

 

[sophia]

1 hour ago, Ad Lib said:

this case will take 18 months to a couple of years to resolve

 

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, sophia said:

 

It's a good thing. Twitter will either find something else to explode about or Musk will bankrupt it by then, and blissful rational thinking will return.

[scottsdad]

1 hour ago, f_c_dundee said:

Again I'll ask then - explain how gender dysphoria should definitely not be a mental health/medical diagnosis as it is in the UK currently, but at the same time should be getting immediate medical treatment ASAP?

In itself, gender dysphoria is not an illness but can cause significant mental health issues if unaddressed. 

I would have thought that was straight f2. 

[DublinMagyar]

"genuine concerns" now joins "I'm not a racist, but"

 

[carpetmonster]

 

[f_c_dundee]

1 hour ago, carpetmonster said:

However it is transphobic - given that the entire concept of gender dysphoria is that one is 'born into the wrong body' - to suggest 'this is a movement changing kids into something they're not'. It's furthermore fearmongering of the worst kind by bringing up kids - Biden hadn't - and using frightening language around 'irreversible medical procedures'. Transitioning does not have to *be* medical and kids are not being given irreversible surgeries. 

Gender Dysphoria, by definition is feeling unease or discomfort with your sexed body. Random NHS definition for illustration:

"Gender dysphoria is a term that describes a sense of unease that a person may have because of a mismatch between their biological sex and their gender identity. This sense of unease or dissatisfaction may be so intense it can lead to depression and anxiety and have a harmful impact on daily life."

 

So absolutely nothing to do with being born in the wrong body, in fact in England and Wales at least, that concept may no longer be taught in schools.  Even Mermaids backed away from it.  The person suffering may feel that way, but it is not a physical thing.

You are entitled to believe in gender identity as a thing, just as I am entitled to not believe.  

That's not transphobic, I just don't believe in it.

 

James Esses is quite obviously referring to Biden and his government's actions as a whole, so it is imo a bit daft picking apart the one tweet he has retweeted.

 

There are lots of things that can lead to poor mental health. I thought I was just a shit human until I was in my 40s, then discovered I have a neurodevelopmental condition. I had zero idea about it until less than a year before the diagnosis. My mental health is consequently a bit wrecked, I was permanently anxious as fk.  I have to accept this though, and look to get psychological support to help with this. I have to both accept that I am not shit and also accept responsibility for stuff that I mess up, which is not easy.

 

If someone either agreed with me that I am shit, or told me that I have no responsibility for anything I mess up due to this condition, neither would be helpful for me in terms of working on helping myself or dealing with the difficult feelings.

 

 

 

 

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

James Esses is quite obviously referring to Biden and his government's actions as a whole, so it is imo a bit daft picking apart the one tweet he has retweeted.

Irreversible surgeries are not being conducted on children under the Biden administration in part or in whole. He is a fearmongering transphobic liar. 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by carpetmonster
formatting

[f_c_dundee]

1 minute ago, carpetmonster said:

Irreversible surgeries are not being conducted on children under the Biden administration in part or in whole. He is a fearmongering transphobic liar. 

 

 

 

What age are you counting as children?

 

[carpetmonster]

6 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

What age are you counting as children?

 

Why, do you think you've got a gotcha? Jazz Jennings received surgery at 17. Trump era. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/aug/10/ron-desantis/transition-related-surgery-limited-teens-not-young/

Esses is deliberately channeling fearmongering rhetoric and you're sealioning. 

 

ETA - to add context to Jennings who was diagnosed with gender dysphoria at age 4 so by 17 she was probably pretty sure this wasn't just a phase - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jazz_Jennings

Edited April 12, 2023 by carpetmonster

[f_c_dundee]

2 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

Why, do you think you've got a gotcha? Jazz Jennings received surgery at 17. Trump era. 

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/aug/10/ron-desantis/transition-related-surgery-limited-teens-not-young/

Esses is deliberately channeling fearmongering rhetoric and you're sealioning. 

I'm not talking about genital surgery only.

 

Mastectomies. On teenagers. Also irreversible.

 

So what age are you counting as children?  Or is it too hard to answer a direct question?

 

17 is also a child!  Poor Jazz, lied to like all the other kids told they can be the opposite sex if they want to. 

 

Remind me how early puberty blocking helped Jazz with the surgery again?  Oh yeah, we could watch the video of hos mother LAUGHING at the fact that the surgeon 'didn't have much to work with'.

 

Jazz does not look happy now at all.

[carpetmonster]

3 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

I'm not talking about genital surgery only.

Between James Esses and you, you're expecting me to be psychic as to what folks 'actually mean' here. I have very limited talents and arsehole-whispering isn't one of them. 

3 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Mastectomies. On teenagers. Also irreversible.

 

So what age are you counting as children?  Or is it too hard to answer a direct question?

Once a child is 18 it's an adult, so the fairly obvious answer would be under 18. I am not sure what difference 6 months would have made in Jazz Jennings' case however

3 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

17 is also a child!  Poor Jazz, lied to like all the other kids told they can be the opposite sex if they want to. 

This is just vile. 

3 minutes ago, f_c_dundee said:

 

Remind me how early puberty blocking helped Jazz with the surgery again?  Oh yeah, we could watch the video of hos mother LAUGHING at the fact that the surgeon 'didn't have much to work with'.

 

Jazz does not look happy now at all.

I'd wager she's had a far more accomplished life than either you or me thus far. You reckon you could get into Harvard?