The Gender Debate

[Suspect Device]

3 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Makes my morning the Alba one percenters claiming they represent the will of the nation. 

They don't but neither do the SNP. Like I've said previously this is a divisive issue which should not have been tackled prior to independence. 

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

They don't but neither do the SNP. Like I've said previously this is a divisive issue which should not have been tackled prior to independence. 

I think all the mainstream parties in the UK had GRA reform as policy until recently, Scottish Labour certainly did in their last manifesto. It's only become controversial because of a manufactured scare campaign on social media and some numpties overreacting on the other side. I don't know anyone in real life who thinks it will affect them or is bothered about it either way.

[Suspect Device]

5 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I think all the mainstream parties in the UK had GRA reform as policy until recently, Scottish Labour certainly did in their last manifesto. It's only become controversial because of a manufactured scare campaign on social media and some numpties overreacting on the other side. I don't know anyone in real life who thinks it will affect them or is bothered about it either way.

 

I wouldn't say the overreacting is confined to one side. Both sides have their vocal arseholes who refuse to listen to any other view.

[doulikefish]

The most amazing thing about this is how many people must have gender toilets in there house because non of them share with males or females 

[welshbairn]

Quite the read for sensible people who avoid Graham Lineham's twitter feed, a couple of months old.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/graham-linehan-twitter-trans-rights-b2253532.html

[Leith Green]

2 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

 

I wouldn't say the overreacting is confined to one side. Both sides have their vocal arseholes who refuse to listen to any other view.

I think thats why women dont want to share the same cludgie as me......................

[Leith Green]

2 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

They don't but neither do the SNP. Like I've said previously this is a divisive issue which should not have been tackled prior to independence. 

Why would independence have made a difference to the gender debate?

[Soapy FFC]

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/feb/03/uk-athletics-trans-women-female-events-law-change

 

Quote

 

However government sources admitted they were puzzled by UKA’s position, given the more recent Equality Act 2010 clearly permits restrictions on the participation of transgender people in gender-affected sporting competitions in order to uphold fair and safe competition.

They also said the law was clear that the act also displaced the rule that a person with a Gender Recognition Certificate is to be treated as being of their acquired gender.

 

 

[Suspect Device]

42 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Why would independence have made a difference to the gender debate?

It wouldn't but it might make a difference to the independence support.

And it doesn't matter if people on here just dismiss the folk who will not support independence because of this issue as bigots, I still want the bigot vote to ensure we get independence. We need votes across the board and as far as I can see we are not increasing support for independence. As much of a clusterfuck as the UK is, we are still stuck at around 50/50.  Every vote counts.

Which is why I question the FM's motives bringing forward a divisive issue like this when we are allegedly trying to get a referendum this year.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Suspect Device

[welshbairn]

Ideally they should have quietly enacted the bill not long after Ireland did and Theresa May was PM and in favour, and before the hysteria started.

[The_Kincardine]

1 hour ago, Suspect Device said:

It wouldn't but it might make a difference to the independence support.

And it doesn't matter if people on here just dismiss the folk who will not support independence because of this issue as bigots, I still want the bigot vote to ensure we get independence. We need votes across the board and as far as I can see we are not increasing support for independence. As much of a clusterfuck as the UK is, we are still stuck at around 50/50.  Every vote counts.

Which is why I question the FM's motives bringing forward a divisive issue like this when we are allegedly trying to get a referendum this year.

Self ID is a farcical notion as Nippy herself tacitly admitted this week and those who oppose it cover a broad spectrum from hard line Nats like Hanvey to socially  liberal people like me.

Cute that you're still thinking of, "a referendum this year".

That ferry is very much in dry dock.

[The_Kincardine]

On 29/01/2023 at 21:50, sophia said:

Is this, given the distance of twenty four hours and the Sabbath, your considered and thoughtful position?

The benefit of time, eh?  Since my " 'self-ID principles' are complete nonsense." post we've had Nippy and Gilruth refusing to accept a person's self-ID.

In the  context of self-ID, Sturgeon's "I don't have enough information" response is absolutely farcical.

But then if they (you) could do joined-up thinking (they) you'd not be Nats.

[sophia]

7 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

The benefit of time, eh?  Since my " 'self-ID principles' are complete nonsense." post we've had Nippy and Gilruth refusing to accept a person's self-ID.

In the  context of self-ID, Sturgeon's "I don't have enough information" response is absolutely farcical.

But then if they (you) could do joined-up thinking (they) you'd not be Nats.

[vikingTON]

7 hours ago, Wee Bully said:

Total word salad.

Also completely missing the point that people should be accommodated in prison according to risk (which has no impact on their male / female status).

Risk to whom? 

[The_Kincardine]

25 minutes ago, sophia said:

Daft wee gif, Sophie-doll?

Still.   Better than your usual tripe.

[welshbairn]

18 minutes ago, virginton said:

Risk to whom? 

If it's a convicted rapist being put in  a women's prison, it would be the other prisoners and staff, if it's a young drug dealer or someone being put in a men's prison, it would be her. It's been judged on a case by case basis in the same way across the UK for years, nothing has changed, and the numbers are tiny. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by welshbairn

[vikingTON]

14 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

If it's a convicted rapist being put in  a women's prison, it would be the other prisoners and staff, if it's a young drug dealer or something being put in a men's prison, it would be her. It's been judged on a case by case basis in the same way across the UK for years, nothing has changed.

Nothing has changed, which is why the SG has been forced to intervene like a clown running across a minefield on two such cases within the Scottish prison system in the last ten days alone. Clearly a foolproof and effective system! These decisions aren't dropped down on stone tablets - they are made by humans acting within the context of their society. 

And it does in fact change the picture because once you accept the fundamental principle of self-ID, you do not get to magically switch it off when it is convenient for a government minister or a governing ideology to do so. Trans rights are after all human rights and a fundamental right like gender recognition applies as much to the most vile offenders in the prison system as they do to a 'young drug dealer'. 

The logical stance to take here from supporters of the GRA is that self-ID trumps the ultimately very low risk of exploitation. But the SG and many (not sure if all) supporters of GRA have been busy tieing themselves in knots instead.

Edited February 3, 2023 by vikingTON

[carpetmonster]

9 minutes ago, virginton said:

Nothing has changed, which is why the SG has been forced to intervene like a clown running across a minefield on two such cases within the Scottish prison system in the last ten days alone. Clearly an effective system! The decisions aren't dropped down on stone tablets - they are made by humans acting within the context of their society. 

And it does in fact change the picture because once you accept the fundamental principle of self-ID, you do not get to magically switch it off when it is convenient for a government minister or a governing ideology to do so. Trans rights are after all human rights and a fundamental right like gender recognition applies as much to the most vile offenders in the prison system as they do to a 'young drug dealer'. 

The logical stance to take here from supporters of the GRA is that self-ID trumps the ultimately very low risk of exploitation. But the SG and many (not sure if all) supporters of GRA have been busy tieing themselves in knots instead.

It doesn’t change the picture tho. Some trans people already have GRC’s and if they were sentenced to imprisonment would be subject to the same assessment as those without. The GRC itself isn’t being changed, just the parameters of obtaining one. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by carpetmonster

[parsforlife]

7 hours ago, scottsdad said:

Wasn't Oaksoft a fan of the emoji also?

It's almost certainly a zombie Oaksoft

5 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

They don't but neither do the SNP. Like I've said previously this is a divisive issue which should not have been tackled prior to independence. 

In terms of politics it's not really that divisive,  polls point to overwhelming support , its just been grabbed at by a handful of extremist bigots who have made alot of noise but not really gained much support.    

2 hours ago, Suspect Device said:

It wouldn't but it might make a difference to the independence support.

And it doesn't matter if people on here just dismiss the folk who will not support independence because of this issue as bigots, I still want the bigot vote to ensure we get independence. We need votes across the board and as far as I can see we are not increasing support for independence. As much of a clusterfuck as the UK is, we are still stuck at around 50/50.  Every vote counts.

Which is why I question the FM's motives bringing forward a divisive issue like this when we are allegedly trying to get a referendum this year.

This isn't a yes/no independence debate, this is an are you a scumbag yes/no?  and if you are a scumbag then I can't see how this influences your independence vote.  If every vote counts then catering to the vast majority who are not scum is surely more of a vote winner than trying to get the minority scum to vote for you?

Personally it would certainly make me more pro-union if the roles were reversed.

We also can't run a parliament on one issue, there's 131 mps + civil servants being payed to make the country better,  do we want them to do nothing without 100% support?

[welshbairn]

From the Irish experience a few more people might apply for a gender recognition certificate, but most don't. It doesn't give you many more rights, if any, other than changing your birth certificate. You can already choose your own preferred gender on passports and driving licenses. A GR certificate does not give you a pass into women's toilets, changing rooms, prisons or anywhere else.