The Gender Debate

[welshbairn]

50 minutes ago, Arch Stanton said:

Gilruth didn't answer her question though.

Spouting "that person is a rapist" and "I don't have enough information" was weak.

 

Didn't watch it but I assume the question was "Is she/he a woman or not?", in which case unless Gilruth personally knew the person and was acquainted with all the background information, "I don't have enough information." is the only honest answer. She might well presume like most of us that the rapist is probably trying to game the system and the trans thing is a pretence, but that judgement shouldn't come as a whim from a politician on a TV show.

[Leith Green]

I think the biggest issue in this Isla Bryson case is that there are simpletons out there in the wild who are conflating the GRR bill with a prisoner pretending to be a woman (which has happened for years).

That there are people in Holyrood (and Westminster) who are "delighted" that this case has emerged at this time to muddy the waters says a heck of a lot more about them than any of the politicians (from all parties) who supported this bill.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

2 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

I think the biggest issue in this Isla Bryson case is that there are simpletons out there in the wild who are conflating the GRR bill with a prisoner pretending to be a woman (which has happened for years).

That there are people in Holyrood (and Westminster) who are "delighted" that this case has emerged at this time to muddy the waters says a heck of a lot more about them than any of the politicians (from all parties) who supported this bill.

I don't think any of them are as delighted as @1320Lichtie though. He could barely contain his excitement. 

[Paco]

You need to ask whether opponents of the bill would accept a simple amendment along the lines of ‘where a Trans individual is admitted to prison, they will be sent to a prison of their birth gender in cases of sexual crime’. Would the Scottish Tories now the back the GRR? 

Spoiler alert - they absolutely, 100% wouldn’t. 

Prisons and sport have always been the areas a bit too difficult to answer in the trans “debate”. This stooshie was inevitable. There’s no doubt the Prison Service got it wrong, and it’s been an absolute catastrophe for the GRR and Nicola Sturgeon personally. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by Paco

[1320Lichtie]

1 hour ago, Benjamin_Nevis said:

I don't think any of them are as delighted as @1320Lichtie though. He could barely contain his excitement. 

Disgusting thing to say. 
 

 

[1320Lichtie]

37 minutes ago, Paco said:

You need to ask whether opponents of the bill would accept a simple amendment along the lines of ‘where a Trans individual is admitted to prison, they will be sent to a prison of their birth gender in cases of sexual crime’. Would the Scottish Tories now the back the GRR? 

Spoiler alert - they absolutely, 100% wouldn’t. 

Prisons and sport have always been the areas a bit too difficult to answer in the trans “debate”. This stooshie was inevitable. There’s no doubt the Prison Service got it wrong, and it’s been an absolute catastrophe for the GRR and Nicola Sturgeon personally. 

And of course they absolutely 100 percent wouldn’t. Under absolutely no circumstances should it be made easier for men to access women’s spaces. 
 

You are absolutely right though it all has been an absolute catastrophe not just for Nicola Sturgeon but for anyone supporting or going along with this utter delusion and madness. When ideology meets reality. 
 

 

[Bairnardo]

39 minutes ago, 1320Lichtie said:

And of course they absolutely 100 percent wouldn’t. Under absolutely no circumstances should it be made easier for men to access women’s spaces. 
 

You are absolutely right though it all has been an absolute catastrophe not just for Nicola Sturgeon but for anyone supporting or going along with this utter delusion and madness. When ideology meets reality. 
 

 

Easier than walking through a door?

[orfc]

1 hour ago, Leith Green said:

I think the biggest issue in this Isla Bryson case is that there are simpletons out there in the wild who are conflating the GRR bill with a prisoner pretending to be a woman (which has happened for years).

That there are people in Holyrood (and Westminster) who are "delighted" that this case has emerged at this time to muddy the waters says a heck of a lot more about them than any of the politicians (from all parties) who supported this bill.

You're right in that this isn't really about transgender rights - it's about dangerous sex offenders exploiting poor legislation which the SNPs bill will make even easier despite being warned what could happen and turning down Tory amendments to address those points because y'know... Evil Tories and all that.

The schadenfreude comes from watching the realityphobic blue face brigade try to defend this and then having the rug pulled from under their feet by events and now their dear leader

As for transgender people themselves I've had a couple as colleagues (some of my best friends are black etc) and apart from an initial *urr what's going on here* vibe it never caused any issues, so good luck to them - then again I'm a 6 ft man so I'm never going to feel threatened by them am I.

I imagine any of them watching this nonsense unfold though must feel a bit like Muslims do every time some terror attack happens and it's claimed in their name or touted as typical of their behaviour.

 

 

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, orfc said:

You're right in that this isn't really about transgender rights - it's about dangerous sex offenders exploiting poor legislation which the SNPs bill will make even easier despite being warned what could happen and turning down Tory amendments to address those points because y'know... Evil Tories and all that.

It's not about that, y'know.

It's about the Tories' economic policies being woefully unpopular with the UK electorate. So they're instead trying to make social issues the battleground. They've looked at the trans panic the US Republican party has fomented there and think they've a chance of importing that here. This was their (opposite) stance on the issue 5 years ago at a time when they were instead polling well. 

[carpetmonster]

57 minutes ago, orfc said:

You're right in that this isn't really about transgender rights - it's about dangerous sex offenders exploiting poor legislation which the SNPs bill will make even easier despite being warned what could happen and turning down Tory amendments to address those points because y'know... Evil Tories and all that.

A trans individual having a GRC (or not) makes literally zero difference to them being assessed as to which prison estate they’d go into (or not). The new legislation does not change that.
 

The Tory amendment that sexual offenders be blanket banned from applying was put forward and if passed. would have likely put the entire bill in breach of the ECHR, meaning if it were challenged the whole act could have been struck down - whether the Tories would have immediately tried to do so, we’ll never know now. Gillian Martin’s amendment to allow Police Scotland to stop sex offenders getting a GRC on individual basis of risk was added to the bill and passed by 121 votes to 0. 

57 minutes ago, orfc said:

The schadenfreude comes from watching the realityphobic blue face brigade try to defend this and then having the rug pulled from under their feet by events and now their dear leader

As for transgender people themselves I've had a couple as colleagues (some of my best friends are black etc) and apart from an initial *urr what's going on here* vibe it never caused any issues, so good luck to them - then again I'm a 6 ft man so I'm never going to feel threatened by them am I.

I imagine any of them watching this nonsense unfold though must feel a bit like Muslims do every time some terror attack happens and it's claimed in their name or touted as typical of their behaviour.

 

 

This bit is covered here. 

2 hours ago, Leith Green said:

I think the biggest issue in this Isla Bryson case is that there are simpletons out there in the wild who are conflating the GRR bill with a prisoner pretending to be a woman (which has happened for years).

 

 

[Benjamin_Nevis]

On 27/01/2023 at 07:49, 1320Lichtie said:

Isla Bryson really did come along at the right time didn't she.... making Sturgeon look like complete fanny who's all over the place (shock). Why shouldn't she be going to a woman's jail she's a trans woman and trans woman are woman!!!!! 

 

2 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Disgusting thing to say. 
 

 

You seem pretty excited there.

What an absolute danger you are

[orfc]

29 minutes ago, FreedomFarter said:

It's not about that, y'know.

It's about the Tories' economic policies being woefully unpopular with the UK electorate. So they're instead trying to make social issues the battleground. They've looked at the trans panic the US Republican party has fomented there and think they've a chance of importing that here. This was their (opposite) stance on the issue 5 years ago at a time when they were instead polling well. 

Maybe they realised the difficulties / nuances involved?

A lot of this is about optics and the SNP have absolutely ballsed it

And of course it's not like the SNP turn 180 on issues is it? An economy based on $113 per barrel of oil at the last indyref to oil is bad m'kay today. Another green-led issue strangely, the tail is wagging the dog. Any nationalists left in the SNP or have they all buggered off to Alba

 

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, orfc said:

Maybe they realised the difficulties / nuances involved?

yes, that’ll be why they struck it down and have refused 3 invitations - Jack twice and Badenoch once (after having been subbed in by Jack) to discuss why with the Scottish Parliament

5 minutes ago, orfc said:

A lot of this is about optics and the right wing press have gone into overdrive with misrepresenting what the Act does; bigots have then been happy to work in tandem firing same across social media nineteen to the dozen

FTFY

5 minutes ago, orfc said:

And of course it's not like the SNP turn 180 on issues is it? An economy based on $113 per barrel of oil at the last indyref to oil is bad m'kay today. Another green-led issue strangely, the tail is wagging the dog. Any nationalists left in the SNP or have they all buggered off to Alba

 

When have the SNP turned 180 on this? Or are we now just back into SNPbad territory for the last bit? 

[orfc]

3 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

When have the SNP turned 180 on this? Or are we now just back into SNPbad territory for the last bit? 

Climate change / renewable energy is important. But it's not debatable that the SNP now see the north sea oil / gas as a hindrance rather than an opportunity - https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23241685.snp-consider-speeding-decline-north-sea-oil-gas-sector/

 

It's not SNP bad - it's SNP extreme. When most major figures who nearly got indy over the line last time - Salmond, Cherry, The Rev - are now chased out, marginalised or seen as extremist you have to recognise that the extreme viewpoint itself is now the one the SNP holds, held to ransom by their very very dodgy green partners (see the revs latest post - certainly worse accusations there than Salmond was ever accused of).

You may not like the messenger, but you need to learn to distinguish them from the message itself. Though I fear someone who's best comeback is "fixed that for you" isn't capable of that

[welshbairn]

2 minutes ago, orfc said:

Climate change / renewable energy is important. But it's not debatable that the SNP now see the north sea oil / gas as a hindrance rather than an opportunity - https://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/23241685.snp-consider-speeding-decline-north-sea-oil-gas-sector/

 

It's not SNP bad - it's SNP extreme. When most major figures who nearly got indy over the line last time - Salmond, Cherry, The Rev - are now chased out, marginalised or seen as extremist you have to recognise that the extreme viewpoint itself is now the one the SNP holds, held to ransom by their very very dodgy green partners (see the revs latest post - certainly worse accusations there than Salmond was ever accused of).

You may not like the messenger, but you need to learn to distinguish them from the message itself. Though I fear someone who's best comeback is "fixed that for you" isn't capable of that

Do you live in Bath by any chance?

[carpetmonster]

2 minutes ago, orfc said:

 

 

It's not SNP bad - it's SNP extreme. When most major figures who nearly got indy over the line last time - Salmond, Cherry, The Rev - are now chased out, marginalised or seen as extremist you have to recognise that the extreme viewpoint itself is now the one the SNP holds, held to ransom by their very very dodgy green partners (see the revs latest post - certainly worse accusations there than Salmond was ever accused of).

 

If you’d just made this para your first post you could been designated as an absolute mark from the outset and saved everyone time and bandwidth. 

[orfc]

Just now, carpetmonster said:

If you’d just made this para your first post you could been designated as an absolute mark from the outset and saved everyone time and bandwidth. 

I see the messenger/message differentiation advice didn't stick then?

Still look on the bright side, when something goes over your head it means at least it hasn't hit you in the face

Anyways this is getting off topic now despite the amazing bantz it's generating so maybe I'll see you all on another thread

[welshbairn]

Makes my morning the Alba one percenters claiming they represent the will of the nation. 

[carpetmonster]

4 minutes ago, orfc said:

I see the messenger/message differentiation advice didn't stick then?

 

I’d already covered that bit 20 minutes ago

22 minutes ago, carpetmonster said:

A lot of this is about optics and the right wing press have gone into overdrive with misrepresenting what the Act does; bigots have then been happy to work in tandem firing same across social media nineteen to the dozen

FTFY

 

 

And yes, you took it off topic. 

[GNU_Linux]

Reminder that Alba currently have less councilors that political heavyweights the Rubbish Party, British Unionist Party & West Dunbartonshire Communist Party.