The Gender Debate

[Bully Wee Villa]

Seems an entirely reasonable response to me. Don't make sweeping decisions that discriminate against all trans people, do protect women if a trans person is an actual rapist. Not sure how anyone could moan about that or suggest that Sturgeon was "flailing" based on her making the correct decision.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Bully Wee Villa

[Honest Saints Fan]

People keep saying they are protecting women's rights. As a woman I have absolutely no issue with those who have changed their gender wanting to access toilets or whatever space they feel is appropriate to them. Sexual predators can get into these spaces no matter what. 

In regards to Isla Bryson, she has been risk assessed and deemed to not be suitable to be in a female prison. This has absolutely nothing to do with the bill that was passed in Parliament. Like all prisoners are risk assessed and moved to the most appropriate place for them and their fellow prisoners.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Honest Saints Fan

[Dawson Park Boy]

22 minutes ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

Seems an entirely reasonable response to me. Don't make sweeping decisions that discriminate against all trans people, do protect women if a trans person is an actual rapist. Not sure how anyone could moan about that or suggest that Sturgeon was "flailing" based on her making the correct decision.

She, and the Justice Secretary initially said they would leave the decision to the SPS who sent him to Cornton Vale despite ministers having the power to overrule the SPS. Only when there was a great eruption from the public was it decided to remove him from there. She refused to admit that he was actually still in Cornton Vale yesterday.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Dawson Park Boy
Spelling

[Bully Wee Villa]

It's a trans woman being discussed so the correct pronouns are "she" and "her". As you well know.

Edited January 27, 2023 by Bully Wee Villa

[Bairnardo]

Just now, Bully Wee Villa said:

It's a trans woman being discussed so the correct pronouns are "she" and "her". As you well know.

It's a trans woman being discussed by a horrible, attention seeking bigot. 

[carpetmonster]

5 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

She, and the Justice Secretary initially said they would leave the decision to the SPS who sent him to Cornton Vale despite ministers having the power to overrule the SPS. Only when there was a great eruption from the public was it decided to remove him from there. She refused to admit that he was actually still in Cornton Vale yesterday.

You missed ‘in solitary confinement while being assessed at’ before ‘Cornton Vale’, which renders the particular facility fairly moot. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by carpetmonster
Typo

[GAD]

12 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

She, and the Justice Secretary initially said they would leave the decision to the SPS who sent him to Cornton Vale despite ministers having the power to overrule the SPS. Only when there was a great eruption from the public was it decided to remove him from there. She refused to admit that he was actually still in Cornton Vale yesterday.

What does this have to do with your objections to the bill?

[DeeTillEhDeh]

18 minutes ago, Dawson Park Boy said:

She, and the Justice Secretary initially said they would leave the decision to the SPS who sent him to Cornton Vale despite ministers having the power to overrule the SPS. Only when there was a great eruption from the public was it decided to remove him from there. She refused to admit that he was actually still in Cornton Vale yesterday.

I'm disappointed she has intervened because it is a political reaction to the gutter right wing press.

The amount of inaccurate pish presented as journalism is fucking sickening.

I just wish the FM had left it to the SPS who I believe would have come to the exact same conclusion.

Stop fucking pandering to these fucking bigots.

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

33 minutes ago, GAD said:

What does this have to do with your objections to the bill?

SNP baaaaaad?

[Jambomo]

1 hour ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

People keep saying they are protecting women's rights. As a woman I have absolutely no issue with those who have changed their gender wanting to access toilets or whatever space they feel is appropriate to them. Sexual predators can get into these spaces no matter what. 

In regards to Isla Bryson, she has been risk assessed and deemed to not be suitable to be in a female prison. This has absolutely nothing to do with the bill that was passed in Parliament. Like all prisoners are risk assessed and moved to the most appropriate place for them and their fellow prisoners.

I might sound like a broken record on here as I have said this before but I hate that these people claim to be speaking for all women. I totally agree with what you have said here.

[J_Stewart]

3 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Isla Bryson really did come along at the right time didn't she.... making Sturgeon look like complete fanny who's all over the place (shock). Why shouldn't she be going to a woman's jail she's a trans woman and trans woman are woman!!!!! Isla said so herself. Sturgeon must be a TERF or a Transphobe? It must be the only explanation, surely?!

The fact that this is happening and has already happened with other people in Scotland is a total farce without even thinking about this GRR bill. Things should be getting dialled way back not getting even crazier and making it easier for people like that. 

People can do what they want and live their lives how they please but when that starts infringing on the rights of other people, especially the people who are truly the most vulnerable then they can take a step back and f**k right off. Keep men out of woman's and little girls toilets and changing rooms and out of women's sports and prisons. 

Making it easier for absolutely anyone to access these spaces and get a free pass based off what they ID as is fucking mental and anything but the progressive cause a tiny loud small minority of people seem to think it is. 

People can shout about it on places like here (mainly fully grown men by the way, so weird) and twitter and abuse anyone who disagrees all they want but thank f**k there seems to be some sensible people in the room at the places that matter and this shite has rightly been called out for what it is. 

What a hill to die on 

This is a complete mess from start to finish from someone who is completely ignorant of the current system and proposed changes (or just a bigot, still on the fence), but the general principle does exemplify one of my absolute favourite genres in online posting: pointing to something under existing circumstances and equating it with some alternative or future law / political system. Americans and Tories are especially great at this while pointing to some level of degradation that currently exists under their exact reality and bemoaning how it's "exactly what communism / Corbyn in charge" would look like. Honestly, the stupidity makes me laugh every time.

 The reporting of this case though is, unsurprisingly, a disgrace. You would think that Women's prisons are an absolute free-for-all - no guards, no procedures, no regulations - by the way the story has been presented. The truth is that Isla Bryson is a dangerous HUMAN BEING regardless of what gender they are assigned for the benefit of their prison sentence, they're currently in isolation away from the general prison population, and the SPS decides which prison - be that male or female - the convict will be serving their sentence in. Essentially, the proposed GRR bill MAKES NO FUCKING DIFFERENCE WHATSOEVER IN THIS INSTANCE (or sports, where the governing body for whatever the sport and level may be makes the decision).

So, with that easily disproven nonsense out of the way yet again, I'll once again ask, 1888Likktie, what is your exact problem with the contents of the proposed GRR bill please? If it's your belief that "Trans people simply shouldn't exist", then at least have the conviction to just come out and say it, rather than dancing around the point like your bullshit above.

[Rugster]

1 hour ago, Bairnardo said:

It's a trans woman being discussed by a horrible, attention seeking bigot. 

Russell Findlay, tory msp, continually referred to her as "him" and "he" on the John Beattie show on Radio Scotland the other night. Beattie challenged him a number of times about not using the correct pronouns and he spluttered something about "sticking to the timeline of him being a man when charged" but he kept doing it. Beattie eventually said you don't accept this person is a woman do you, and Findlay eventually said fine I'll just refer to the person as the rapist from now on.

Tories gonna tory.

[Boo Khaki]

58 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

I'm disappointed she has intervened because it is a political reaction to the gutter right wing press.

The amount of inaccurate pish presented as journalism is fucking sickening.

I just wish the FM had left it to the SPS who I believe would have come to the exact same conclusion.

Stop fucking pandering to these fucking bigots.

 

This.

It appears that Bryson's transition may well be fraudulent and nothing more than a cynical attempt to gain more favourable conditions, so contrary to some of the claims in the media, this particular case actually highlights a few pertinent things -

1. It looks very much like the safeguards in place to detect and prevent this do actually work.

2. This is in no way 'evidence' that GRC would be abused by predatory men, as Bryson's crimes were committed while living as a man, Bryson does not possess a GRC and AFAIK has not applied for one.

For Douglas Ross, amongst many others, to try and paint this as the exact scenario the opponents of GRR were claiming was inevitable is either totally disingenuous, or they are so incredibly thick and/or blinded by outright bigotry that they can't even see that this case, as is, has no relevance whatsoever to GRC.

Where this would be interesting is if Bryson did, in fact, own a GRC, because then there might be some avenue for protest that as a legal woman they should be held in a women's prison, but Bryson does not own a GRC so can not make that claim. As it is the decision would rest entirely with SPS, and even under the circumstances whereby a transperson with a GRC wished to challenge the SPS's decision, I'm sure the Equality Act provision for 'reasonable and necessary' exceptions would cover the event whereby a trans sex offender is deemed too much of a risk to house in a prison of their acquired gender. So again, the 'slippery slope' aspect is just complete nonsense, and can only be the standpoint of those who are either being wilfully ignorant, or are irredeemably thick.

[Leith Green]

35 minutes ago, J_Stewart said:

 The reporting of this case though is, unsurprisingly, a disgrace

Yep, I was out in the garden with 6 music on earlier and the 2nd story on their news segment was this. 

No background, just a comment from the ex governor of Cornton saying that "she would have refused to have the prisoner in her prison".

That was it - no chat from the SPS saying that Bryson was in solitary being risk assessed and that she may have been moved out anyway.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

3 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Yep, I was out in the garden with 6 music on earlier and the 2nd story on their news segment was this. 

No background, just a comment from the ex governor of Cornton saying that "she would have refused to have the prisoner in her prison".

That was it - no chat from the SPS saying that Bryson was in solitary being risk assessed and that she may have been moved out anyway.

Not to mention that the ex-governor has an axe to grind - her opinion needs to ge taken with a large shovel of salt.

Edited January 27, 2023 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Boo Khaki]

2 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Yep, I was out in the garden with 6 music on earlier and the 2nd story on their news segment was this. 

No background, just a comment from the ex governor of Cornton saying that "she would have refused to have the prisoner in her prison".

That was it - no chat from the SPS saying that Bryson was in solitary being risk assessed and that she may have been moved out anyway.

Yes, the 'Ex' Governor, who BBC Scotland's story refers to in the headline as 'Prison Boss' and completely omits the 'ex' part.

Besides, the story is clearly intended to give the impression she has said the entire matter is a 'shambles', when the only point she was actually making is that she can't see any reason why Bryson had to be held in Cornton Vale while being assessed, and that if she were still in charge she'd have objected to that.

[Leith Green]

3 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

if she were still in charge she'd have objected to that.

I was interested in this point - can a prison gov say "no" to a prisoner?

I mean, if the SPS assess someone as suitable, is that even in their power? If so, it really needs to be reviewed because that seems ripe for abuse.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

4 hours ago, 1320Lichtie said:

Isla Bryson really did come along at the right time didn't she.... making Sturgeon look like complete fanny who's all over the place (shock). Why shouldn't she be going to a woman's jail she's a trans woman and trans woman are woman!!!!! Isla said so herself. Sturgeon must be a TERF or a Transphobe? It must be the only explanation, surely?!

The fact that this is happening and has already happened with other people in Scotland is a total farce without even thinking about this GRR bill. Things should be getting dialled way back not getting even crazier and making it easier for people like that. 

People can do what they want and live their lives how they please but when that starts infringing on the rights of other people, especially the people who are truly the most vulnerable then they can take a step back and f**k right off. Keep men out of woman's and little girls toilets and changing rooms and out of women's sports and prisons. 

Making it easier for absolutely anyone to access these spaces and get a free pass based off what they ID as is fucking mental and anything but the progressive cause a tiny loud small minority of people seem to think it is. 

People can shout about it on places like here (mainly fully grown men by the way, so weird) and twitter and abuse anyone who disagrees all they want but thank f**k there seems to be some sensible people in the room at the places that matter and this shite has rightly been called out for what it is. 

What a hill to die on 

Jesus christ. You're actually creaming yourself because you think a rapist has crashed and burned the GRA reforms. 

Where do you stand on predatory males' parents plying girls with drink so they are vulnerable to a barely consensual shag later on btw? 

[Billy Jean King]

14 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Yep, I was out in the garden with 6 music on earlier and the 2nd story on their news segment was this. 

No background, just a comment from the ex governor of Cornton saying that "she would have refused to have the prisoner in her prison".

That was it - no chat from the SPS saying that Bryson was in solitary being risk assessed and that she may have been moved out anyway.

It's as bad as both BBC and STV giving air time to a loonball the other night who was claiming that by changing gender Bryson had "gained access to" young girls at a college in Kilwinning.  She had enrolled in a beautician course at the college, a course open to both males and females so gender was absolutely irrelevant. I'd be very surprised if there were not males already on that course. There was talk of "registers" and all sorts, it was like a Daily Mail piece on national news channels. 

[Dawson Park Boy]

2 hours ago, Bully Wee Villa said:

It's a trans woman being discussed so the correct pronouns are "she" and "her". As you well know.

I accept your point but if the individual has not yet received a GRC certificate then surely the individual must be classed as male bearing in mind that the individual still has male genitalia and male sex chromosomes.

Guidance would be appreciated.