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The Gender Debate


jamamafegan

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I don't see the real issue here in terms of those two views aligning. Nobody is forcing you to have sex with anyone, male, female or anything in between, if you don't find someone attractive for whatever reason then that's your own prerogative.

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Why on earth would someone not wanting to shag a trans woman invalidate said trans woman being a woman?

Women are not defined as 'someone you'd want to shag'.

Physical attraction has absolutely nothing to do with someone being a woman. It's an odd thing to even bring up in relation to the debate.

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6 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Why on earth would someone not wanting to shag a trans woman invalidate said trans woman being a woman?

Women are not defined as 'someone you'd want to shag'.

Physical attraction has absolutely nothing to do with someone being a woman. It's an odd thing to even bring up in relation to the debate.

This is exactly why people back away from this discussion. Lesson learned. 

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Will save myself quoting [mention=68117]Bairnardo[/mention] and [mention=82337]VincentGuerin[/mention] but I broadly agree. 
I had second thoughts about even posting that originally, feeling it wasn’t really worth the potential grief, but I don’t think it’s that much of a thought crime. 
I absolutely support peoples rights to just get on with their lives but I’m not sure beating people over the head with trans women are women is that helpful, particularly if you can’t remain committed to that when push comes to shove (not accusing anyone on here of that). I couldn’t come battering into the debate saying that because I’m not committed to it if it really affected me. 
Aye we are talking a societal level shift in peoples perceptions of gender. Differentiating gender/sex etc. Being a boy or a girl has been a defining part of peoples existence for as long as there have been humans. It's going to take time, and whilst people might see shrieking on twitter about individual cases and specific, toilet/weightlifting related scenarios as a wee "win" for themselves, it quite simply isn't helping and is pushing people into entrenched positions.

"You can't be a straight white bloke these days" already gets far too much traction as it is. We don't need those particular flames stoked IMO.

We quite literally live in a society where people's sexuality is still a controversial issue for some and a cause of outright hatred and bigotry for others. Iv said before, people aren't really ready for the gender debate to be forced into the mainstream when it it really affects a miniscule number of people.
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The whole debate about what the objective reality of the situation is very unhelpful. For starters, most people seem to be starting from the position that there is such a thing as objective reality, which is itself a controversial position. 

Surely it is more important whether people will respect the wishes and choices of other people that whether you agree with some slogany definition. 

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20 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

This is exactly why people back away from this discussion. Lesson learned. 

People back away from the discussion because women aren't defined as someone you want to shag or not?

I'm not following.

Edited by DA Baracus
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26 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Women are not defined as 'someone you'd want to shag'.

Considering the casual abuse that women get for not looking "feminine" enough, there are an awful lot of people who have trouble with that concept.

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People back away from the discussion because women aren't defined as someone you want to shag or not?
I'm not following.
I think his point was people submitting that into the argument was one of the reasons why he tends to back away from it?
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13 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

People back away from the discussion because women aren't defined as someone you want to shag or not?

I'm not following.

People back away because you reduced the points being made to some Neanderthal male attitude of women being someone you want to shag. 

The point was clearly about the fact that I can’t in good conscience fully commit to the statement ‘trans women are women’ if push came to shove in my own personal experience. That means that in reality I do create a distinction between women and trans women. 

I don’t pretend to have the right to define what is or isn’t a woman, nor does my view invalidate anyones right to be anything. But the blanket statement I’ve alluded to, which seems to be a pre requisite for supporting trans rights, I don’t feel is appropriate for me. 

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I think the thing that's really noticeable for me is that whenever the gender 'debate' (such as it is a debate) gets brought up, it immediately gets sidetracked into things that aren't really at the core of the issue. This thread a good example, whether or not you would personally have sex with a transgender person isn't really particularly relevant.

What the topic ultimately comes down to is should transgender people have the right to live in this country, or indeed any other country, whilst presenting freely as their true gender without fear of discrimination/violence/having to jump through a million bureucratic hoops and with easy, affordable access to gender affirming healthcare? I would argue, and hope that most others on this thread would too, that the answer to that is 'yes' and that currently the UK achieves none of the items on that list to a satisfactory standard.

The real issues in the 'gender debate' are things like that waiting times for access to hormone replacement therapy are frequently measured in years, that the process of legally changing your gender is a nightmare, that bigotry against transgender people is seen as acceptable in the UK media provided that its dressed up as concern about some other issue, that the government are attempting to exclude transgender people from a ban on conversion therapy, the increased risk of being a victim of violence if you are transgender.

Now I don't blame you if you don't have too much knowledge on these issues, I know I didn't until relatively recently, I still feel like I have a whole lot more to learn. Ultimately that comes down to the fact that the media portrayal of the 'gender debate' and online discussions feel like they are a long, long way from the reality of the situation. But I don't think the correct response to that is to back away for fear of saying the wrong thing because it doesn't really affect you. I think there is a responsibility there to educate yourself a little and try to help where you can.

To come back to the discussion on whether you would have sex with a trans woman. To me saying that trans women are women, or indeed that trans men are men, is simply a statement that you recognise a person as their true gender. In so much as you need to 'commit' to that statement its in treating them with respect and dignity, in advocating for their rights and in standing up against bigotry.

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2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

People back away because you reduced the points being made to some Neanderthal male attitude of women being someone you want to shag. 

The point was clearly about the fact that I can’t in good conscience fully commit to the statement ‘trans women are women’ if push came to shove in my own personal experience. That means that in reality I do create a distinction between women and trans women. 

I don’t pretend to have the right to define what is or isn’t a woman, nor does my view invalidate anyones right to be anything. But the blanket statement I’ve alluded to, which seems to be a pre requisite for supporting trans rights, I don’t feel is appropriate for me. 

That's on you then if you want to make a distinction between women and trans women. Unsure why you can't 'in good conscience' commit to, what I consider at least, a relatively simple view.

I really don't see what is controversial or difficult about 'trans women are women'. 

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4 minutes ago, MrWorldwideJr said:

I think the thing that's really noticeable for me is that whenever the gender 'debate' (such as it is a debate) gets brought up, it immediately gets sidetracked into things that aren't really at the core of the issue. This thread a good example, whether or not you would personally have sex with a transgender person isn't really particularly relevant.

What the topic ultimately comes down to is should transgender people have the right to live in this country, or indeed any other country, whilst presenting freely as their true gender without fear of discrimination/violence/having to jump through a million bureucratic hoops and with easy, affordable access to gender affirming healthcare? I would argue, and hope that most others on this thread would too, that the answer to that is 'yes' and that currently the UK achieves none of the items on that list to a satisfactory standard.

The real issues in the 'gender debate' are things like that waiting times for access to hormone replacement therapy are frequently measured in years, that the process of legally changing your gender is a nightmare, that bigotry against transgender people is seen as acceptable in the UK media provided that its dressed up as concern about some other issue, that the government are attempting to exclude transgender people from a ban on conversion therapy, the increased risk of being a victim of violence if you are transgender.

Now I don't blame you if you don't have too much knowledge on these issues, I know I didn't until relatively recently, I still feel like I have a whole lot more to learn. Ultimately that comes down to the fact that the media portrayal of the 'gender debate' and online discussions feel like they are a long, long way from the reality of the situation. But I don't think the correct response to that is to back away for fear of saying the wrong thing because it doesn't really affect you. I think there is a responsibility there to educate yourself a little and try to help where you can.

To come back to the discussion on whether you would have sex with a trans woman. To me saying that trans women are women, or indeed that trans men are men, is simply a statement that you recognise a person as their true gender. In so much as you need to 'commit' to that statement its in treating them with respect and dignity, in advocating for their rights and in standing up against bigotry.

That’s all fair enough and i suppose I did distract from the ‘real’ debate with my own personal hang ups. 

I absolutely agree with all your points tbh and if we were to go back to the fundamental point per your 2nd paragraph then I’m in absolute support. 

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3 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

That's on you then if you want to make a distinction between women and trans women. Unsure why you can't 'in good conscience' commit to, what I consider at least, a relatively simple view.

I really don't see what is controversial or difficult about 'trans women are women'. 

Nice one buddy, good for you. 

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1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

Nice one buddy, good for you. 

I'm still unsure what your actual point is. You were the one who made irrelevant comments about dating a trans woman.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wishing to date someone because you aren't physically/sexually attracted to them. It just isn't relevant in this debate. 

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1 minute ago, DA Baracus said:

I'm still unsure what your actual point is. You were the one who made irrelevant comments about dating a trans woman.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wishing to date someone because you aren't physically/sexually attracted to them. It just isn't relevant in this debate. 

That’s fine, I’m out and you can debate more relevant stuff. 

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20 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

 

I really don't see what is controversial or difficult about 'trans women are women'. 

It is controversial because a lot of people disagree with it for a wide variety of reasons. 

A lot of people who disagree with that statement have no issue with trans people and support trans rights. 

Making the debate about the rights or wrongs of a definition moves the debate away from the practicalities and real things that can be done for trans people. And that plays right into the hands of those that oppose those rights. 

So actual real progress in society can be held back by people insisiting on a fundamentalist position. 

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17 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I'm still unsure what your actual point is. You were the one who made irrelevant comments about dating a trans woman.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wishing to date someone because you aren't physically/sexually attracted to them. It just isn't relevant in this debate. 

 

I don't understand what you think you are achieving by being obnoxious to someone who is clearly engaging in the discussion in good faith and has already made it very clear that they support trans people. I think this forum is on the whole fairly liberal about the topic and therefore this thread should be a relatively safe space for people to discuss issues/concerns that have come up to them without being judged.

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9 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

 

I don't understand what you think you are achieving by being obnoxious to someone who is clearly engaging in the discussion in good faith and has already made it very clear that they support trans people. I think this forum is on the whole fairly liberal about the topic and therefore this thread should be a relatively safe space for people to discuss issues/concerns that have come up to them without being judged.

I haven't once judged them, nor am I trying to be obnoxious. 

I was just asking questions about a viewpoint. Corpolite has explained this controversy, which is what I was trying to find out, as I never claimed to know everything and was confused as to why there was such controversy.

 

Edited by DA Baracus
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33 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

I haven't once judged them, nor am I trying to be obnoxious. 

I was just asking questions about a viewpoint. Corpolite has explained this controversy, which is what I was trying to find out, as I never claimed to know everything and was confused as to why there was such controversy.

 

Fair enough if I misinterpreted your tone. I took it as you digging me out and I wasn’t really wanting to be dragged into an argument on it. 

so if I’m wrong then mea culpa. 

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Just now, Dons_1988 said:

Fair enough if I misinterpreted your tone. I took it as you digging me out and I wasn’t really wanting to be dragged into an argument on it. 

so if I’m wrong then mea culpa. 

No worries at all. I didn't intend to come across that way so apologies if I did.

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