The current LL in laymans terms.

[LongTimeLurker]

Given the SPFL's internal voting structure it will be very difficult to move away from the current format as we have seen in recent seasons.

The hope would be that as more clubs in the lower two divisions realise that there is an influx of clubs from the west approaching over the horizon that puts their future league status in jeopardy that they will see a benefit in implementing rule changes that would make it easier to be promoted back in.

Time will tell basically

Edited January 5, 2022 by LongTimeLurker

[Sergeant Wilson]

59 minutes ago, Cornishman said:

Ideally, I think an SPFL of three tiers, constituted of 12, 20 & 20 teams would be ideal.

Aye, that would work if you wanted to bankrupt the "middle" 20 and see the top 12 breakaway.

[FairWeatherFan]

3 hours ago, Merkie84 said:

What about the bottleneck for clubs getting promoted from the LL / HFL to League 2 ?

10 teams seems to small for me to allow a reasonable amount of movement between the leagues and I can see why teams there don't want automatic relegation. 

It seems to me that 42 SPFL clubs is the number just because that was how many teams there were before the pyramid, not because it is necessarily the most suitable amount of teams in the league. 

How many teams ideally should be in league 2 / the SPFL to allow for automatic promotion/ relegation etc ?

When the SPFL was being put together 12-12-18 was on the cards. It fell through at the top when a split 8-8-8 was introduced between the 12 team leagues. While that killed off the proposal, the teams making up the 18 were also dithering over the one big division or expanding by two clubs to have 12-12-10-10.

I'd probably have the 12-12-18 set up. With the turnover of clubs between the non-league and SPFL maybe there will be less fear over a bigger division for the part-time teams.

[Andy groundhopper]

Maybe one day the spfl will grow to 44 clubs, allowing the guaranteed relegations without any need for play offs etc. The quicker clubs go down and get replaced with HL, LL champions the better. Stinks of the old football league days of voting club 92 back in, year after year, despite them being crap. 

[Hillonearth]

34 minutes ago, Andy groundhopper said:

Maybe one day the spfl will grow to 44 clubs, allowing the guaranteed relegations without any need for play offs etc. The quicker clubs go down and get replaced with HL, LL champions the better. Stinks of the old football league days of voting club 92 back in, year after year, despite them being crap. 

It's notable that as yet none of the former SPFL clubs has bounced back from non-league status, which suggests that the pool of clubs below the league proper is at least as strong as those above them.

Likewise, none of the former junior clubs have exactly struggled when they've stepped up to LL level, which suggests exactly the same.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

Still a bit early for that claim about the quality between SPFL and below. East Stirling had been stinking the place out for years, so are a bit of an outlier, and Brechin, just as horrific really, are still in with a chance of going straight back up. Of the three clubs that have came up two are financially backed above their station. I think the situations of the clubs that have went up/down and a small sample size makes reading into the movement of clubs so far skewed.

Mind you, having said that, I think there's at least a dozen teams outside the SPFL currently better than Cowdenbeath and a few dozen below the LL better than Vale of Leithen. So I don't disagree with your final assessment in the slightest. 

[FairWeatherFan]

1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Still a bit early for that claim about the quality between SPFL and below. East Stirling had been stinking the place out for years, so are a bit of an outlier, and Brechin, just as horrific really, are still in with a chance of going straight back up. Of the three clubs that have came up two are financially backed above their station. I think the situations of the clubs that have went up/down and a small sample size makes reading into the movement of clubs so far skewed.

Mind you, having said that, I think there's at least a dozen teams outside the SPFL currently better than Cowdenbeath and a few dozen below the LL better than Vale of Leithen. So I don't disagree with your final assessment in the slightest. 

The years that they were elected Peterhead finished 4th and Elgin City 9th in the Highland League, with Annan Athletic 7th in the old EoS Premier. They were yo-yo clubs with good and bad seasons but never exactly dominant.

It's not much of a stretch to say that once clubs are outside the SPFL bubble they've the potential to be swallowed up.

While Cove Rangers and Kelty Hearts might be financially backed, there's at least a greater stability with them than others that have gone from boom to bust.

Cove won 6 of the last 12 Highland League titles they were in. Kelty went 2/3 in East Superleagues before moving onto the EoSFL followed by the LL where they had the poor 1st season that saw them retool to where they are now.

 

[Dev]

5 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Aye, that would work if you wanted to bankrupt the "middle" 20 and see the top 12 breakaway.

Not sure about this: but wasn't one reason for going to as few as 10 clubs for each of the three lower divisions that this would help to make matches more equal and competitive i.e. there would be a much greater gap between the top and bottom clubs in a 20, 16 or even 12 club division?

If more meaningful matches are needed and there's a desire/need to bring in clubs from outside the current SPFL then how about something like this:

Four divisions of 12 each. The season played over two phases with the top six in each division playing off for promotion and the bottom six playing to avoid relegation. There would be automatic relegation from every division for the bottom two clubs at the end of the second phase.

Phase One: 22 league matches. Phase Two: an extra 10 league matches. Total: 32 league matches.

At the end of Phase Two the top club would be guaranteed promotion (Prem League obviously different i.e. European placings). The second promotion place would be for the winners of a knock-out tournament played for by the remaining five clubs from the top group plus the club finishing top of the lower group.

This would make virtually every match throughout the season count. It would even give clubs in the lower groups (Phase Two) something to aim at besides avoiding relegation.

This idea is nicked from the top division in Wales.

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 minutes ago, Dev said:

Not sure about this: but wasn't one reason for going to as few as 10 clubs for each of the three lower divisions that this would help to make matches more equal and competitive i.e. there would be a much greater gap between the top and bottom clubs in a 20, 16 or even 12 club division?

If more meaningful matches are needed and there's a desire/need to bring in clubs from outside the current SPFL then how about something like this:

Four divisions of 12 each. The season played over two phases with the top six in each division playing off for promotion and the bottom six playing to avoid relegation. There would be automatic relegation from every division for the bottom two clubs at the end of the second phase.

Phase One: 22 league matches. Phase Two: an extra 10 league matches. Total: 32 league matches.

At the end of Phase Two the top club would be guaranteed promotion (Prem League obviously different i.e. European placings). The second promotion place would be for the winners of a knock-out tournament played for by the remaining five clubs from the top group plus the club finishing top of the lower group.

This would make virtually every match throughout the season count. It would even give clubs in the lower groups (Phase Two) something to aim at besides avoiding relegation.

This idea is nicked from the top division in Wales.

Aye right!

[Dev]

20 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Aye right!

OK.

How many more current SPFL clubs will it take to get relegated before the self-preservation button is pressed and they'll be searching round for some way to make their status more secure? Maybe then we'll see some action to re-structure? FWIW  I think restructuring will happen and it will mean an increase in the numbers of clubs in the SPFL. Give it another one or two clubs relegated via the play-offs for it to kick-off.

[Sergeant Wilson]

3 hours ago, Dev said:

OK.

How many more current SPFL clubs will it take to get relegated before the self-preservation button is pressed and they'll be searching round for some way to make their status more secure? Maybe then we'll see some action to re-structure? FWIW  I think restructuring will happen and it will mean an increase in the numbers of clubs in the SPFL. Give it another one or two clubs relegated via the play-offs for it to kick-off.

Even if expansion was agreed, nobody is in favour of 20 team divisions, especially at tier 2.

Edited January 5, 2022 by Sergeant Wilson

[Hillonearth]

6 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Still a bit early for that claim about the quality between SPFL and below. East Stirling had been stinking the place out for years, so are a bit of an outlier, and Brechin, just as horrific really, are still in with a chance of going straight back up. Of the three clubs that have came up two are financially backed above their station. I think the situations of the clubs that have went up/down and a small sample size makes reading into the movement of clubs so far skewed.

Mind you, having said that, I think there's at least a dozen teams outside the SPFL currently better than Cowdenbeath and a few dozen below the LL better than Vale of Leithen. So I don't disagree with your final assessment in the slightest. 

I perhaps phrased it badly - I didn't mean the lower tiers are anywhere near uniformly in a position to seamlessly supplant the teams above them, rather that in both cases there are decent-sized cohorts of clubs currently sitting at the lower level who are more than capable of overtaking those currently in the higher one.

I agree about the small sample size, however neither Berwick or the Shire looked like bouncing straight back or indeed regaining league status any time soon, and over time as the stronger former junior sides filter through and strengthen the LL it's not beyond the realms of possibility that either or both might see further relegation. Up north, Brechin seem to have have a better chance of bouncing back, but the Broch don't look like dropping too many points this year and could well pip them.

[parsforlife]

There's simply no chance of significant change to the spfl any time soon.  All the proposals that have come infront of clubs gain so little traction that they get dumped well before being put to a vote, which as mentioned isn't easy to get things through.

Change in Scottish football happens slowly.  You can't rip things up and start again.

Over time we might see automatic relegation to league 2,  likely once we have a group of clubs who have experienced life both sides of the line.    The best example I can think is over the spfl merger,

It took 15 years for enough clubs to have experienced life in and out of the SPL before SPL clubs chose to accept the greater chance of relegation in exchange for a stronger league to be relegated into with a better chance of promotion.  

[grazza]

30 minutes ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Even if expansion was agreed, nobody is in favour of 20 team divisions, especially at tier 2.

Doubt there is another nation of the population of Scotland within Europe with mostly full time 2nd tier. At most I think we could go to 12 clubs in 2nd tier and do a same split system as premiership as it would work better where more to play for though I would say if that happened should be 2 automatic relegation places.

I think there is a place for a truly national tier with part time clubs and tier 3 is where I would have it at. 

Tier 4 however I would look at at hybrid system with 6 in north division  and 6 in south play own division. 4 times and other division 2 times. Highland and Lowland champs should be get promoted automatically into this.  There is a lot of short termism in the SPFL for clubs that are worried about dropping out and bottleneck of not coming back in, only way to convince them for reform like my idea may be to have no relegation from tier 4 for 3 seasons but 2 clubs get promoted each year from tier 5.  How would lowland / highland fans feel about that so long as at end of it highland and lowland champs guaranteed promotion on yearly basis. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 minute ago, grazza said:

Doubt there is another nation of the population of Scotland within Europe with mostly full time 2nd tier. At most I think we could go to 12 clubs in 2nd tier and do a same split system as premiership as it would work better where more to play for though I would say if that happened should be 2 automatic relegation places.

I think there is a place for a truly national tier with part time clubs and tier 3 is where I would have it at. 

Tier 4 however I would look at at hybrid system with 6 in north division  and 6 in south play own division. 4 times and other division 2 times. Highland and Lowland champs should be get promoted automatically into this.  There is a lot of short termism in the SPFL for clubs that are worried about dropping out and bottleneck of not coming back in, only way to convince them for reform like my idea may be to have no relegation from tier 4 for 3 seasons but 2 clubs get promoted each year from tier 5.  How would lowland / highland fans feel about that so long as at end of it highland and lowland champs guaranteed promotion on yearly basis. 

You're nearer to right than @Dev but short termism has painted so many clubs into a financial corner that the general good of the game is never high on the agenda.

[AlanCamelonfan]

On 04/01/2022 at 11:36, southerner said:

Probably the only teams to stay in it would be Bonnyrigg, The Spartans and East Kilbride with the rest replaced by the top 4 in the East Premier League and the rest coming from the top 11 of the WOS premier league

That is complete garbage. ROb Roy were 8th when we played them we were on a 7 game losing run struggling. Probably played the worst we had played in that run and won 2-1.

[jimbaxters]

32 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

That is complete garbage. ROb Roy were 8th when we played them we were on a 7 game losing run struggling. Probably played the worst we had played in that run and won 2-1.

Which competition was this in and was that this season? Which position were you in at the time?

[AlanCamelonfan]

1 minute ago, jimbaxters said:

Which competition was this in and was that this season? Which position were you in at the time?

This seasons SOuth Challenge cup not sure of our exact position. we had won our opening 3 games and then went on a 7 game losing streak before we turned over Rob Roy.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WnFmFyhUd0&t=172s

[southerner]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

That is complete garbage. ROb Roy were 8th when we played them we were on a 7 game losing run struggling. Probably played the worst we had played in that run and won 2-1.

All about opinions.

[AlanCamelonfan]

27 minutes ago, southerner said:

All about opinions.

More proof of you being wrong than right. Pollok should be there because they get crowds of 500