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The current LL in laymans terms.


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Had a wee delve into the LL forum and it looks like the all singing and dancing tier 5 is turning into a shitshow with the ugly sisters colts teams telling the league when they are playing each other, the Highland-Lowland boundary being scrapped due to somebody being miffed about where their team dropped into after being relegated. I couldn't be bothered wading through all the posts, so could somebody enlighten me on whats happening as my team is one of the front runners to be promoted into it.

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9 hours ago, Blackie Gold said:

Had a wee delve into the LL forum and it looks like the all singing and dancing tier 5 is turning into a shitshow with the ugly sisters colts teams telling the league when they are playing each other, the Highland-Lowland boundary being scrapped due to somebody being miffed about where their team dropped into after being relegated. I couldn't be bothered wading through all the posts, so could somebody enlighten me on whats happening as my team is one of the front runners to be promoted into it.

The hard boundary between the Highland-Lowland has been removed. What happens now is the SPFL2 clubs nominate which league they want to be relegated into, the leagues can reject, and it goes to the SFA as the final arbiter. Nothing really changes. You'd be looking at hypotheticals on hypotheticals.

There tends to be the understanding that two clubs can postpone/rearrange a fixture if both sides agree. That would appear to be the case here. As the OF B teams do no participate in any of the cups, there's nothing really for the league to object to since there's plenty of dates available.

The OF B teams should be gone by the end of the season. It was only voted on as a one year trial and was a part of wider reconstruction that's already been rejected by the SPFL. Trying to make it permanent will be a lot more controversial than last summer which should prevent it from happening. If there's even the desire within the Lowland League to make the attempt.

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2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The hard boundary between the Highland-Lowland has been removed. What happens now is the SPFL2 clubs nominate which league they want to be relegated into, the leagues can reject, and it goes to the SFA as the final arbiter. Nothing really changes. You'd be looking at hypotheticals on hypotheticals.

There tends to be the understanding that two clubs can postpone/rearrange a fixture if both sides agree. That would appear to be the case here. As the OF B teams do no participate in any of the cups, there's nothing really for the league to object to since there's plenty of dates available.

The OF B teams should be gone by the end of the season. It was only voted on as a one year trial and was a part of wider reconstruction that's already been rejected by the SPFL. Trying to make it permanent will be a lot more controversial than last summer which should prevent it from happening. If there's even the desire within the Lowland League to make the attempt.

An excellent reply.

May the best WoS club (whichever club) win the league and the play-off for a place in the LL.

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2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The OF B teams should be gone by the end of the season. It was only voted on as a one year trial and was a part of wider reconstruction that's already been rejected by the SPFL. Trying to make it permanent will be a lot more controversial than last summer which should prevent it from happening. If there's even the desire within the Lowland League to make the attempt.


I wish I shared your confidence on this. I fully expect a majority of Lowland League clubs to want to keep them on board.

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2 hours ago, craigkillie said:


I wish I shared your confidence on this. I fully expect a majority of Lowland League clubs to want to keep them on board.

If the vote went 11-5 and Cowdenbeath/Auchinleck traded places with Bonnyrigg/VoL. I could still see things being 11-5.

I just don't see the same sort of vote happening as circumstances have moved on. The SPFL are going to have to sort out something Reserve/Development League wise for next season.

Permanently moving to 18 Lowland League clubs and using it purely for the OF will bring about arguments of favouritism and confrontation with the Tier 6 clubs. The 34 games would have to be crammed into a shorter timeframe than the 2021-22 season as next season won't start so early.

The notion of competitive advantage has been shown to be a little bit true. As more points have been picked up on international weekends when the 'B' teams are weakened.

It's not something that the LL Board can push through in the same manner and say it doesn't effect anyone else.

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If the vote went 11-5 and Cowdenbeath/Auchinleck traded places with Bonnyrigg/VoL. I could still see things being 11-5.
I just don't see the same sort of vote happening as circumstances have moved on. The SPFL are going to have to sort out something Reserve/Development League wise for next season.
Permanently moving to 18 Lowland League clubs and using it purely for the OF will bring about arguments of favouritism and confrontation with the Tier 6 clubs. The 34 games would have to be crammed into a shorter timeframe than the 2021-22 season as next season won't start so early.
The notion of competitive advantage has been shown to be a little bit true. As more points have been picked up on international weekends when the 'B' teams are weakened.
It's not something that the LL Board can push through in the same manner and say it doesn't effect anyone else.
I don't think confrontation with tier 6 clubs is really going to bother anyone. At the end of the day the tier 6 clubs will abide by the promotion/relegation slots that they are told to accept.

I believe the introduction of Celtic/Rangers B teams into the Lowland League was an attempt to get them into the SPFL via the back door, since all other attempts had repeatedly been voted down by SPFL clubs.

That possibility seems to have abated, but what have the two clubs accepted as a compromise?
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On 30/12/2021 at 13:00, FairWeatherFan said:

If the vote went 11-5 and Cowdenbeath/Auchinleck traded places with Bonnyrigg/VoL. I could still see things being 11-5.

I just don't see the same sort of vote happening as circumstances have moved on. The SPFL are going to have to sort out something Reserve/Development League wise for next season.

Permanently moving to 18 Lowland League clubs and using it purely for the OF will bring about arguments of favouritism and confrontation with the Tier 6 clubs. The 34 games would have to be crammed into a shorter timeframe than the 2021-22 season as next season won't start so early.

The notion of competitive advantage has been shown to be a little bit true. As more points have been picked up on international weekends when the 'B' teams are weakened.

It's not something that the LL Board can push through in the same manner and say it doesn't effect anyone else.

 

The SFA want the LL to return to 16 clubs for next season.  Whether that changes or not who knows, but the LL permanently expanding to 18 clubs isn't possible unless the SFA agree (rules changes required...)

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I  can't see the Celtic and Rangers B teams reporting back that playing LL standard opponents was great for player development to the standard that they're wanting to see. 
I watched Caledonian Braves v Broomhill yesterday (two LL mid table sides) and came away with the impression that all of the WoSFL Premier teams and the top WoSFL Conference teams would compete favourably with both sides who were on display. I believe both squads were hit by Covid call-offs and injuries and had to call on their u20s, to be fair, so maybe it wasn't the best game to judge the standard of the league. Crowd was around 120, including a fair few interested neutrals from the WoSFL scene, attracted by the mild weather and the free entry (donation was optional).
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29 minutes ago, glensmad said:
3 hours ago, Shanner said:
I  can't see the Celtic and Rangers B teams reporting back that playing LL standard opponents was great for player development to the standard that they're wanting to see. 

I watched Caledonian Braves v Broomhill yesterday (two LL mid table sides) and came away with the impression that all of the WoSFL Premier teams and the top WoSFL Conference teams would compete favourably with both sides who were on display. I believe both squads were hit by Covid call-offs and injuries and had to call on their u20s, to be fair, so maybe it wasn't the best game to judge the standard of the league. Crowd was around 120, including a fair few interested neutrals from the WoSFL scene, attracted by the mild weather and the free entry (donation was optional).

Me too - my assessment of the two sides on show was similar, in that both of them would challenge in the WOSFL conferences but would struggle in the Premier. Incidentally, I saw the crowd reported online as 177 but like you I'd have put it a fair bit lower than that.

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1 hour ago, glensmad said:
4 hours ago, Shanner said:
I  can't see the Celtic and Rangers B teams reporting back that playing LL standard opponents was great for player development to the standard that they're wanting to see. 

I watched Caledonian Braves v Broomhill yesterday (two LL mid table sides) and came away with the impression that all of the WoSFL Premier teams and the top WoSFL Conference teams would compete favourably with both sides who were on display. I believe both squads were hit by Covid call-offs and injuries and had to call on their u20s, to be fair, so maybe it wasn't the best game to judge the standard of the league. Crowd was around 120, including a fair few interested neutrals from the WoSFL scene, attracted by the mild weather and the free entry (donation was optional).

Probably - Braves beat Kilbirnie (narrowly) and Shotts in the South Challenge Cup, their ranking (90th) would put them 22nd in a combined WOS.

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From browsing this sub forum I get the impression the lowland league does not currently contain the biggest / strongest 18 teams in the “region”

If it was to be torn up and started from scratch with the biggest/ best teams from the current levels 5-7, who would be in/out? 

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Probably the only teams to stay in it would be Bonnyrigg, The Spartans and East Kilbride with the rest replaced by the top 4 in the East Premier League and the rest coming from the top 11 of the WOS premier league

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...but hopefully there will be a tipping point well before that once more former junior clubs work their way in and the bottleneck will be removed. Some posters on here seem to think the SFA have demanded that the LL come up with a solution to the issue in recent pyramid meetings but you are more likely to be in the loop on that than the people who have posted about it.

Three is on the low side as an estimate for who is likely to be able to hang around at tier 5, in my opinion. Bo'ness United are having a very poor season by their standards but they should not be discounted. Definitely a bigger club than either Tranent or Penicuik over the years and only Linlithgow Rose from the EoS premier are likely to perform around the same level as them most seasons without somebody pumping money in a Darvel or East Kilbride sort of way. Berwick Rangers also probably have the support level needed to be able to hang around as well in the east.

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8 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...but hopefully there will be a tipping point well before that once more former junior clubs work their way in and the bottleneck will be removed. Some posters on here seem to think the SFA have demanded that the LL come up with a solution to the issue in recent pyramid meetings but you are more likely to be in the loop on that than the people who have posted about it.

Three is on the low side as an estimate for who is likely to be able to hang around at tier 5, in my opinion. Bo'ness United are having a very poor season by their standards but they should not be discounted. Definitely a bigger club than either Tranent or Penicuik over the years and only Linlithgow Rose from the EoS premier are likely to perform around the same level as them most seasons without somebody pumping money in a Darvel or East Kilbride sort of way. Berwick Rangers also probably have the support level needed to be able to hang around as well in the east.

Agree with a good bit you are saying as was surprised where Bo’ness were sitting, kept it quite simple removing the B teams and naturally the top 3 without them now LL stalwarts, I went with as many WOSL teams as I personally think the standard has been good in the first season I think if you put in any of the top 11 clubs into the LL this season they would be top half, all about opinions as I would like to see good competitive sides like Bo’ness and Berwick in the league.

Edited by southerner
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What about the bottleneck for clubs getting promoted from the LL / HFL to League 2 ?

10 teams seems to small for me to allow a reasonable amount of movement between the leagues and I can see why teams there don't want automatic relegation. 

It seems to me that 42 SPFL clubs is the number just because that was how many teams there were before the pyramid, not because it is necessarily the most suitable amount of teams in the league. 

How many teams ideally should be in league 2 / the SPFL to allow for automatic promotion/ relegation etc ?

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1 hour ago, Merkie84 said:

What about the bottleneck for clubs getting promoted from the LL / HFL to League 2 ?

10 teams seems to small for me to allow a reasonable amount of movement between the leagues and I can see why teams there don't want automatic relegation. 

It seems to me that 42 SPFL clubs is the number just because that was how many teams there were before the pyramid, not because it is necessarily the most suitable amount of teams in the league. 

How many teams ideally should be in league 2 / the SPFL to allow for automatic promotion/ relegation etc ?

Ideally, I think an SPFL of three tiers, constituted of 12, 20 & 20 teams would be ideal.

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