vikingTON Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Kelty have not shown just how strong teams at tier 5 and 6 can be, in the same way that Gretna didn't show how strong the East of Scotland league was in the 2000s. They have turned over their players year on year by throwing money around. How many 'senior sides' were actually dumped out by the Highland League this season? There weren't too many more scalps coming from the LL either. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said: a number of senior sides have been dumped out by Lowland, Highland, and West of Scotland League teams 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 39 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said: Perhaps, if that were used without context, but a number of senior sides have been dumped out by Lowland, Highland, and West of Scotland League teams this year. That's hardly new, but the additional clubs making it into the Scottish hasn't cheapened the product at all. It's made the cup more competitive overall. Specifically, the gap between the top of Lowland League and much of L2 is really rather small. Most insidiously, is the strength of Talbot/Clydebank/Darvel/Pollok/Kilwinning at Tier 6, who would batter a lot of the Lowland League (Tier 5), and would compete well with the likes of Cowdenbeath every week. Kelty have shown just how strong teams at Tier 5/6 can be. I suspect the long-term solution is to substantial increase L2, possibly splitting into North/South leagues, but at Tier 4 rather than Tier 5. That however, requires some strategic thinking, and some selfless voting by members who, however unfortunately, prefer the leagues structures to protect the perpetually weak, rather than creating a better product. Either way, even given no changes, those WoS teams will all be at the top of the LL with one or two in L2 within the next five years. I agree when you say there's no doubt that half the WOS and Banks O'Dee would hammer most of the Tier 5 sides in both leagues, but context of the argument was of opening and expanding the pyramid just because of how far these clubs get in a random knock out competition where you could get to the SF without playing a Tier 1 or 2 side, is easily countered. The only true way to judge it would be to drop these sides in Tier 4 and 5 today and see how they do, which can't happen of course 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passbackdave Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 13 hours ago, candycelt said: Really pish draw tbh. Was hoping for Clydebank vs Talbot away for something different. Failing that a tie that I could maybe get tickets for (Banks O’Dee at Pittodrie? Thistle?). Failing that just any home tie. But fucking Alloa away is just pish man. No chance I’ll get tickets. Is it likely to be moved from Recreation Park? might head to Rangers v Stirling Albion in the away end since I have some mates from Stirling and it’d be a good laugh. clydebank vs annan and talbot vs hearts are really good draws. Banks O’Dee vs Raith could be interesting too, and Kelty vs Saints Why dont u go watch st rochs? Mon the papers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passbackdave Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 12 hours ago, Talbot supporter said: Can't see us beating Hearts but you never know, will be a great day with beechwood packed. This must be the first we have played a premiership side in a competitive match at beechwood, had some friendlies/testimonials against a few in the past. Is the game getting played at beechwood? Kinda gutted for talbot getting the only team they didnt probably want lol. Always next year unless use pull of a massive shock. Mon the papers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passbackdave Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 11 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said: We’re absolutely not favourites here, but i think the odds will be slightly shorter against us than vs clyde. My brother had £20 on us and didnt even tell me he got a decent deal, cheeky fucker. I’d absolutely love to make the last 16, that would just be the best way to mark our return to senior football and reward the fans who’ve put up with so much shit over the last 25 years. should he be betting? Mon the papers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC63 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Is the game getting played at beechwood? Kinda gutted for talbot getting the only team they didnt probably want lol. Always next year unless use pull of a massive shock. Mon the papersDon't see why Talbot would change the venue. Be good to see Hearts at Beechwood. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuttonDressedAsLahm Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 23 minutes ago, TheScarf said: I agree when you say there's no doubt that half the WOS and Banks O'Dee would hammer most of the Tier 5 sides in both leagues, but context of the argument was of opening and expanding the pyramid just because of how far these clubs get in a random knock out competition where you could get to the SF without playing a Tier 1 or 2 side, is easily countered. The only true way to judge it would be to drop these sides in Tier 4 and 5 today and see how they do, which can't happen of course Your point is refuting one that hasn't been made, though. Milwall getting to the FA Cup Final wasn't proof that the English Championship teams should be in Europe, but then no one was arguing that. Championship teams regularly beating Premier League teams in the FA Cup, however, is evidence that there is some parity between the levels. Would you disagree to the claim that the difference between L2, and a substantial number of teams at Tier 5/6 is lower now that it has been in decades? It's certainly the closest it has been since the pyramid was extended. And we're not talking about one or two (see Gretna, Peterhead, Elgin whoever), we're talking about at least 10 sides that could make a parallel L2 and be close to as competitive. The closed shop of the pyramid structure will reduce the speed at which this happens, but over the next 5-10 years, it will only become more obvious (irrespective of Scottish Cup results, whatever they may be). Edited November 30, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Just now, HuttonDressedAsLahm said: Would you disagree to the claim that the difference between L2, and a substantial number of teams at Tier 5/6 is lower now that it has been in decades? It's certainly the closest it has been since the pyramid was extended. Why do you keep conflating tier 5 and tier 6? The standard of tier 5 as measured by your chosen benchmark of cup results is far worse than it was in recent seasons. Most of the Highland League were papped out of the tournament before even getting a sniff of a tier 4 side. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot supporter Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Don't see why Talbot would change the venue. Be good to see Hearts at Beechwood. Think this game would attract around 10k if it was played maybe at the likes of Rugby Park 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuttonDressedAsLahm Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, virginton said: Why do you keep conflating tier 5 and tier 6? The standard of tier 5 as measured by your chosen benchmark of cup results is far worse than it was in recent seasons. Most of the Highland League were papped out of the tournament before even getting a sniff of a tier 4 side. I'm conflating 5/6 because of the unique situation that delayed extension of the pyramid has created. I can't imagine there are many other league systems in the world where a lower tier is substantially stronger than the tier above it, but here we are. HL teams being beaten by LL/EoS/NoS/WoS sides is irrelevant. The point isn't that any particular league at 5/6 is strongest, it's that jointly together, there numerous sides that are borderline as competitive, or more competitive than some L2 sides. That's the point. Edited November 30, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingTON Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said: I'm conflating 5/6 because of the unique situation that delayed extension of the pyramid has created. I can't imagine there are many other league systems in the world where a lower tier is substantially stronger than the tier above it, but here we are. HL teams being beaten by LL/EoS/NoS/WoS sides is irrelevant. It absolutely is relevant because the only teams that can replace tier 4 clubs come from the Highland or Lowland Leagues. And the gap between tier 4 and 5 is actually wider now than it was when fucking Berwick were stinking the place out. Quote The point isn't that any particular league at 5/6 is strongest, it's that jointly together, there numerous sides that are borderline as competitive, or more competitive than some L2 sides. That's the point. Vale of Leithen aren't. Caledonian Braves aren't. Most of the entire Highland League didn't even get that far in the competition. So no, you can't actually cherrypick ten teams from the hundred plus across tiers 5 and 6 - hardly any of them being in tier 5 - to make a why oh why case for the weakness of tier 4. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1320Lichtie Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 12 hours ago, morley said: I think EK and Clydebank both have a great chance. I have seen EK, Clydebank and Annan play this season and neither Peterhead or Annan playing great. Then in order of likelyhood from the other 3, BoD at home could surprise Raith, likewise Darvel/Brechin against Arbroath could surprise especially if Brechin got through the replay and with the added spice of an Angus derby. Talbot least likely but then again they are playing at home with a full house behind them. No being funny but I’d be willing to wager an extremely large amount of money that that Brechin team wouldn’t get more than 1 shot at goal against us derby or not. The game v Forfar at the weekend was the most comfortable game of football I’ve ever seen us play. And Forfar as shite as they are are better than that Brechin team. Darvel looked shite too tbh One of them will end up beating us now, of course 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BC63 Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Think this game would attract around 10k if it was played maybe at the likes of Rugby ParkIt would if you were desperate for the money. But can't wait to see the game at home. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheScarf Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 42 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said: Your point is refuting one that hasn't been made, though. Milwall getting to the FA Cup Final wasn't proof that the English Championship teams should be in Europe, but then no one was arguing that. Championship teams regularly beating Premier League teams in the FA Cup, however, is evidence that there is some parity between the levels. Would you disagree to the claim that the difference between L2, and a substantial number of teams at Tier 5/6 is lower now that it has been in decades? It's certainly the closest it has been since the pyramid was extended. And we're not talking about one or two (see Gretna, Peterhead, Elgin whoever), we're talking about at least 10 sides that could make a parallel L2 and be close to as competitive. The closed shop of the pyramid structure will reduce the speed at which this happens, but over the next 5-10 years, it will only become more obvious (irrespective of Scottish Cup results, whatever they may be). That point was made though? He literally said the pyramid should be expanded due to the results of Tier 6 clubs in a random draw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mustafa_sheet Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 15 hours ago, jagfox OG said: Aye, youse got pumped 3-0... No, that’ll be this Saturday!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oneteaminglasgow Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 Which ten teams (at least) is it we’re referring to that are in tiers 5 or 6 who “borderline as competitive, or more competitive” than the League Two sides? I’m assuming that Auchinleck, Clydebank, East Kilbride and Banks O’Dee are in there, as the sides definitely in the fourth round, but who else? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passbackdave Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 1 hour ago, BC63 said: Don't see why Talbot would change the venue. Be good to see Hearts at Beechwood. If use dont need 2 move then great for use and beechwood would be rocking that day. Whats the capacity? Mon the papers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuttonDressedAsLahm Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, virginton said: It absolutely is relevant because the only teams that can replace tier 4 clubs come from the Highland or Lowland Leagues. And the gap between tier 4 and 5 is actually wider now than it was when fucking Berwick were stinking the place out. Vale of Leithen aren't. Caledonian Braves aren't. Most of the entire Highland League didn't even get that far in the competition. So no, you can't actually cherrypick ten teams from the hundred plus across tiers 5 and 6 - hardly any of them being in tier 5 - to make a why oh why case for the weakness of tier 4. Identifying strong teams at a lower level demonstrates the farce of the current pyramid. You're picking obviously weak teams from the LL - so what? The point made above was that the poorly implemented pyramid system has resulted in overly strong teams being beneath much weaker ones. Even taking L2 out of the equation, if you shook Tier 5/6 like a snowglobe, the majority of the bottom half of the LL would disappear to a much lower level. If you did the same to L2, it would absolutely not end up in the format it currently is. That is the point. Edited November 30, 2021 by HuttonDressedAsLahm 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
candycelt Posted November 30, 2021 Share Posted November 30, 2021 2 hours ago, passbackdave said: Why dont u go watch st rochs? Mon the papers I will go to the Candy game on the Saturday too of course! Weather and changing of schedules etc permitted we’ve got EK Thistle that weekend, might go to one of the cup games on the Friday or Sunday though. Hopefully the Bankies, Talbot and Darvel keep doing the WOSFL proud 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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