Argentina 78: a reappraisal

[Ewan8472]

On 10/12/2021 at 15:58, nate said:

I had umpteen uncles who swore blind our player pool in the 60s was better than anything that came afterwards. I’d then ask them how come we qualified for nothing in the 60s. They blamed bad luck, injuries and mismanagement for our failure to qualify for anything back then. I’m not so sure. There’s a surprising amount of this old stuff up on the likes of YouTube and when you watch it a pattern starts to emerge: we were repeatedly beating, or at least matching, the big hitters but dropping vital points to the lesser nations. Examples of this are..

WCQ 66 - beating Group winners Italy but losing at home to Poland

ECQ 68 - beating the so-called world champions at Wembley but losing to northern Ireland

WCQ 70 - holding a formidable Germany but squandering points to Austria.

Complacency? Unable to raise our game consistently? Who knows. Maybe just a case of individual talents - Baxter, McNeil, Law, Cooke, Crerand, Jinky etc - who couldn’t gel collectively.

WCQ 68 - they had George Best and our                      defence was ....

[Anfield 1977]

22 hours ago, Marlow said:

Still not much of an excuse for literally never having watched them, or had them watched

Nonsense. It is a perfectly valid excuse for `never having watched them.' 

All of Irans games between the draw and the Finals were in Tehran with the exception of the France match. It is documented in the minutes of SFA meetings that MacLeod always intended to attend this game and the trip had been approved. It was not the managers fault the date of the fixture was changed at short notice leaving the only remaining opportunities to watch Iran when he was preparing with his own squad.

A more valid criticism would be MacLeod turning down the opportunity to travel with the BBC to watch Peru play against Argentina at no cost to the SFA.

Stein was not keen to travel to watch New Zealand either prior to Spain '82 but knew he would be wide open to criticism after what happened four years earlier if the result went against him.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Anfield 1977
error

[Bogbrush1903]

On 03/12/2021 at 21:26, Marlow said:

Evans and McGrain were deservedly dropped as they gifted the goals to New Zealand - even Stein had to see that (mind you, he brought McGrain on against the USSR when we were chasing a win in the last game - wtf?). No idea why he thought playing Evans in the first place made any sense other than to appease media south of the border because he had won a European Cup recently - he had figured precisely f-all in the qualifying games, not even in squads. 

A good starting point is Archie MacPherson's "Adventures in the Golden Age" and its chapters about the 1982 World Cup. Over the years, I've read so many biographies/ghost written autobiographies of people involved that it all blends into a blur beyond that. There is a cracking book to be written about the 82 World Cup. 

I'm not sure what the ideal starting line-up would have been in 82 for the first match and I know it's easy to say this, but lots of us knew at the time that Leighton was clearly a better keeper than Rough, that the McLeish/Miller partnership worked and McGrain was past his best, though I do acknowledge that Rough and McGrain were experienced and Hansen was a big name player for Europe's top club, so I understand Stein's conservatism. Mind you, I couldn't stand Hansen or Archibald as Scotland players and the faith in Alan Brazil was also misplaced.

 

Of the people available, I reckon this lot would have got us off to a better start (and finish) in that campaign:

 

Leighton

Narey or Burley

Gray 

McLeish

Miller

Souness

Strachan

Wark

Dalglish

Robertson

Jordan.

 

I've liked that but I do think John Robertson and Joe Jordon were on the decline by 1982 and the latter certainly had injury problems too.

Hindsight has proven that Stein didn't pick the strongest squad available to him. If Allan Evans was going to be tried then it should've been in 1981 when Villa were winning the title. By 1982, and despite the European Cup win (where they beat Valur, Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Kiev, Anderlecht and Bayern Munich) they were already on a fairly precipitous slide. You don't try out a new to international football centre half on the eve of a World Cup.

However, perhaps Evans is being unfairly judged because his only World Cup game he had the calamitous Hanson beside him. 

Hansen should've been nowhere near the first XI. He had partner McLeish (0-3 defeat in Spain before the finals), Evans (two goals against NZ) and Miller (the Soviet Union disaster). He was probably the weakest defender out of the four and should've been weeded out long before the Soviet Union match.

I agree that McGrain would've been good in 1978 but was past it internationally by 1982. I'm not sure if Burley was fully fit as he had suffered a serious injury in 1981 I think but either Burley or Ray Stewart would've been more likely right-backs by 1982.

Despite his goal, I wouldn't have played Narey against Brazil, nor would've Hartford (past it by 1982), Hansen (shite), or John Robertson (fitness levels in Seville heat) been in the team.

I wonder if Charlie Nicholas would've been taken had he not been injured. He certainly was still waiting for his first cap. For a winger, I can't remember Davie Cooper's form at the time but he was certainly in the international wilderness. As an Aberdeen fan, I would've been more inclined to try out Peter Weir.

However, out of the squad he picked, I would have favoured Archibald purely for his form with Spurs at the time, although hindisght also tells us that it never happened for him at international level.

Stein didn't have the best of times as Scottish manager; however, conversely, I would've loved to see how he fared as manager in 1978. Although, he had died by 1986, I think the 1986 World Cup would've been very difficult experience for him had he lived to see it (and had he managed to get us past Australia)  

 

Edited December 15, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[Marlow]

2 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

I've liked that but I do think John Robertson and Joe Jordon were on the decline by 1982 and the latter certainly had injury problems too.

Hindsight has proven that Stein didn't pick the strongest squad available to him. If Allan Evans was going to be tried then it should've been in 1981 when Villa were winning the title. By 1982, and despite the European Cup win (where they beat Valur, Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Kiev, Anderlecht and Bayern Munich) they were already on a fairly precipitous slide. You don't try out a new to international football centre half on the eve of a World Cup.

However, perhaps Evans is being unfairly judged because his only World Cup game he had the calamitous Hanson beside him. 

Hansen should've been nowhere near the first XI. He had partner McLeish (0-3 defeat in Spain before the finals), Evans (two goals against NZ) and Miller (the Soviet Union disaster). He was probably the weakest defender out of the four and should've been weeded out long before the Soviet Union match.

I agree that McGrain would've been good in 1978 but was past it internationally by 1982. I'm not sure if Burley was fully fit as he had suffered a serious injury in 1981 I think but either Burley or Ray Stewart would've been more likely right-backs by 1982.

Despite his goal, I wouldn't have played Narey against Brazil, nor would've Hartford (past it by 1982), Hansen (shite), or John Robertson (fitness levels in Seville heat) been in the team.

I wonder if Charlie Nicholas would've been taken had he not been injured. He certainly was still waiting for his first cap. For a winger, I can't remember Davie Cooper's form at the time but he was certainly in the international wilderness. As an Aberdeen fan, I would've been more inclined to try out Peter Weir.

However, out of the squad he picked, I would have favoured Archibald purely for his form with Spurs at the time, although hindisght also tells us that it never happened for him at international level.

Stein didn't have the best of times as Scottish manager; however, conversely, I would've loved to see how he fared as manager in 1978. Although, he had died by 1986, I think the 1986 World Cup would've been very difficult experience for him had he lived to see it (and had he managed to get us past Australia)  

 

Funnily enough, in some ways I agree with you: the team I named would not actually have been the one I'd have sent out against Brazil, but I reckon it would have been much more effective against New Zealand and the USSR than what we had, so I said they'd have got us off to a better start and finish.

I don't think Stein would have taken Burley if he wasn't fully fit, despite my criticism of Big Jock's 1982 decisions, he would not have taken a crock like McLeod did with McQueen in 78. Ray Stewart was told at the last minute he wasn't going and Stuart Kennedy of your Aberdeen was so pissed off about not making the 22 for Spain that he told McLeish, Miller, Strachan and Leighton he would never go for a 50-50 ball again because they all got pay rises for being in the 82 squad!

IF Nicholas had not got injured I'm sure he'd have been taken (probably getting Paul Sturrock's place), but not so sure he'd have played 

 

Stein's initial squad of 40 submitted to FIFA did include Davie Cooper but not Peter Weir. It was:

 

Roy Aitken
Arthur Albiston
Steve Archibald
Jim Bett
Alan Brazil
Des Bremner
George Burley
Tommy Burns
Kenny Dalglish
Allan Evans
Davie Cooper
Arthur Graham
Andy Gray
Frank Gray
Alan Hansen
Asa Hartford
Paul Hegarty
Derek Johnstone
Joe Jordan
Stewart Kennedy
Jim Leighton
George McCluskey
Danny McGrain
Alex McLeish
Iain McCulloch
Willie Miller
Iain Munro
David Narey
Davie Provan
John Robertson
Alan Rough
Robert Russell
Graeme Souness
Gordon Strachan
Jim Stewart
Ray Stewart
Paul Sturrock
Billy Thompson
John Wark
George Wood

[Bogbrush1903]

2 hours ago, Marlow said:

Funnily enough, in some ways I agree with you: the team I named would not actually have been the one I'd have sent out against Brazil, but I reckon it would have been much more effective against New Zealand and the USSR than what we had, so I said they'd have got us off to a better start and finish.

I don't think Stein would have taken Burley if he wasn't fully fit, despite my criticism of Big Jock's 1982 decisions, he would not have taken a crock like McLeod did with McQueen in 78. Ray Stewart was told at the last minute he wasn't going and Stuart Kennedy of your Aberdeen was so pissed off about not making the 22 for Spain that he told McLeish, Miller, Strachan and Leighton he would never go for a 50-50 ball again because they all got pay rises for being in the 82 squad!

IF Nicholas had not got injured I'm sure he'd have been taken (probably getting Paul Sturrock's place), but not so sure he'd have played 

 

Stein's initial squad of 40 submitted to FIFA did include Davie Cooper but not Peter Weir. It was:

Wow, I've never see the initial 40 before and it just shows how thin the options were, I mean he's scraping the barrel there seemingly just adding players to make up the 40.

I mean Iain McCulloch, for a moment I got mixed up with the Killie goalie Alan but then remembered that Jimmy Sirrell had got Notts County flying through the leagues with a Scottish striker. But an international player! Certainly not

George McCluskey! I would've turned to Frank McGarvey first, and it would be McGarvey that would become the internationalist whilst McCluskey slipped into the lower leagues in England during the 1980s.

Des Bremner! Last capped in 1976, ok a European Cup winner like Evans but was never going to Spain. Which should've been the case with Evans too. I wonder if Stein felt under pressure to include one of the European Cup winning Scots? Didn't Ken McNaught also winning a European Cup medal?

Bobby Russell! A good enough player when he broke through in the late 1970s but by the early 1980s he's struggling in a struggling Oldco team. He would have a bit of an Indian summer with Motherwell though.

Derek Johnstone!! No thanks, I wouldn't have taken him to Argentina let alone Spain

Arthur Graham! I know he played a few games in 1979 and scored against Argentina but by 1982 he should've been internationally obsolete...and was apart from this 40!

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games

I know Jim Bett had made his debut in the Hampden win over a weak Dutch team just before the finals, he was from the same mining village as Stein and a class act on the pitch but the fact that Stein wouldn't play him again until 1984 means he was filling up the numbers in the 40 in 1982 and always likely to drop out.

I didn't know that about Kennedy. He was a far better and experienced player in 1982 than he was when he actually made the team(albeit because of injuries) in 1978. He was certainly a fit player but couldn't have played much more for Scotland after 1978.

I would've played Leighton, McLeish and Miller in the 1982 World Cup Finals but I think adding another Aberdeen defensive player would've been a step too far. I think that I would've taken Albiston instead of Frank Gray at left-back and my preferred defensive line would've been Leighton-Burley-Albiston-McLeish and Miller.

Easy for me though, I'm not getting put under pressure by Dalglish and Souness to include their pal.

Again though, like Kennedy, a player appears at the wrong World Cup. Albiston plays in 1986 (I think against Uruguay), by which time he was finished at the top level but doesn't play in 1982 where he had good experience but youth on his side.

Edited December 15, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[Marlow]

45 minutes ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Wow, I've never see the initial 40 before and it just shows how thin the options were, I mean he's scraping the barrel there seemingly just adding players to make up the 40.

I mean Iain McCulloch, for a moment I got mixed up with the Killie goalie Alan but then remembered that Jimmy Sirrell had got Notts County flying through the leagues with a Scottish striker. But an international player! Certainly not

George McCluskey! I would've turned to Frank McGarvey first, and it would be McGarvey that would become the internationalist whilst McCluskey slipped into the lower leagues in England during the 1980s.

Des Bremner! Last capped in 1976, ok a European Cup winner like Evans but was never going to Spain. Which should've been the case with Evans too. I wonder if Stein felt under pressure to include one of the European Cup winning Scots? Didn't Ken McNaught also winning a European Cup medal?

Bobby Russell! A good enough player when he broke through in the late 1970s but by the early 1980s he's struggling in a struggling Oldco team. He would have a bit of an Indian summer with Motherwell though.

Derek Johnstone!! No thanks, I wouldn't have taken him to Argentina let alone Spain

Arthur Graham! I know he played a few games in 1979 and scored against Argentina but by 1982 he should've been internationally obsolete...and was apart from this 40!

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games

I know Jim Bett had made his debut in the Hampden win over a weak Dutch team just before the finals, he was from the same mining village as Stein and a class act on the pitch but the fact that Stein wouldn't play him again until 1984 means he was filling up the numbers in the 40 in 1982 and always likely to drop out.

I didn't know that about Kennedy. He was a far better and experienced player in 1982 than he was when he actually made the team(albeit because of injuries) in 1978. He was certainly a fit player but couldn't have played much more for Scotland after 1978.

I would've played Leighton, McLeish and Miller in the 1982 World Cup Finals but I think adding another Aberdeen defensive player would've been a step too far. I think that I would've taken Albiston instead of Frank Gray at left-back and my preferred defensive line would've been Leighton-Burley-Albiston-McLeish and Miller.

Easy for me though, I'm not getting put under pressure by Dalglish and Souness to include their pal.

Again though, like Kennedy, a player appears at the wrong World Cup. Albiston plays in 1986 (I think against Uruguay), by which time he was finished at the top level but doesn't play in 1982 where he had good experience but youth on his side.

And here is the 40 for Argentina:

Goalkeepers:-
Alan Rough (Partick Thistle)
Jim Blyth (Coventry)
Bobby Clark (Aberdeen)
Jim Stewart (Middlesbrough)*
Dave Stewart (Leeds U)*
Defenders :-
Sandy Jardine (Rangers)
Stewart Kennedy (Aberdeen)
Willie Donnachie (Man City)
Martin Buchan (Man Utd)
Tom Forsyth (Rangers)
Kenny Burns (Nottm Forest)
Gordon McQueen (Man Utd)
Willie Miller (Aberdeen)*
John Blackley (Newcastle)*
David Narey (Dundee Utd)*
Paul Hegarty (Dundee Utd)*
Roddie MacDonald (Celtic)*
John Brownlie (Hibernian)*
Midfielders :-
Bruce Rioch (Derby Co)
Don Masson (Derby Co)
Asa Hartford (Man City)
Graeme Souness (Liverpool)
Archie Gemmill (Nottm Forest)
Neil McNab (Tottenham H)*
Graeme Payne (Dundee Utd)*
Tony Fitzpatrick (St Mirren)*
John Wark (Ipswich)*
Roy Aitken (Celtic)*
Forwards :-
Lou Macari (Man Utd)
Joe Jordan (Man Utd)
John Robertson (Nottm Forest)
Joe Harper (Aberdeen)
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool)
Willie Johnston (WBA)
Derek Johnstone (Rangers)
Andy Gray (Aston Villa)*
Arthur Graham (Leeds U)*
Ian Wallace (Coventry)*
Frank McGarvey (St Mirren)*
 

[Lurkst]

5 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

 I can't remember Davie Cooper's form at the time but he was certainly in the international wilderness.

Not just internationally, he was in the wilderness at Ibrox until Jock Wallace returned as manager and his improved form earned a Scotland recall.

 

[Bogbrush1903]

12 hours ago, Marlow said:

And here is the 40 for Argentina:

Goalkeepers:-
Alan Rough (Partick Thistle)
Jim Blyth (Coventry)
Bobby Clark (Aberdeen)
Jim Stewart (Middlesbrough)*
Dave Stewart (Leeds U)*
Defenders :-
Sandy Jardine (Rangers)
Stewart Kennedy (Aberdeen)
Willie Donnachie (Man City)
Martin Buchan (Man Utd)
Tom Forsyth (Rangers)
Kenny Burns (Nottm Forest)
Gordon McQueen (Man Utd)
Willie Miller (Aberdeen)*
John Blackley (Newcastle)*
David Narey (Dundee Utd)*
Paul Hegarty (Dundee Utd)*
Roddie MacDonald (Celtic)*
John Brownlie (Hibernian)*
Midfielders :-
Bruce Rioch (Derby Co)
Don Masson (Derby Co)
Asa Hartford (Man City)
Graeme Souness (Liverpool)
Archie Gemmill (Nottm Forest)
Neil McNab (Tottenham H)*
Graeme Payne (Dundee Utd)*
Tony Fitzpatrick (St Mirren)*
John Wark (Ipswich)*
Roy Aitken (Celtic)*
Forwards :-
Lou Macari (Man Utd)
Joe Jordan (Man Utd)
John Robertson (Nottm Forest)
Joe Harper (Aberdeen)
Kenny Dalglish (Liverpool)
Willie Johnston (WBA)
Derek Johnstone (Rangers)
Andy Gray (Aston Villa)*
Arthur Graham (Leeds U)*
Ian Wallace (Coventry)*
Frank McGarvey (St Mirren)*
 

Again, this list of 40 is scraping the bottom of the barrel but does highlight where we were weakest and the paucity of midfielders are very evident.

Niether McNab, Payne or Fitzpatrick would prove themselves to be international class although the latter might've been if he had landed at Aberdeen in the late 1970s/1980s before the move fell through.

Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were all past their best by 1978, although the latter will forever be remembered for his slaloming run past the Dutch defenders to score Scotland's third. I would've liked to have seen Gemmill play in 1974 perhaps in front of Bremner who was in the twilight of his playing career.

Poor Roy Aitken missed out on 1978 and 1982 but the former was too early for him.

What a pity John Wark wasn't included in the final selection to go to Argentina though.

Up front, Arthur Graham also missed out on 1978 and 1982. 1978 would've been far more likely for him than 1982 though.

Andy Gray, another to miss out in 78 and 82 (would also miss out in 86 too). I think 1978 was his most likeliest (it was unfortunate for him that the 1986 World Cup was just a year too late for him after his brief renaissance at Everton) but he had blotted his copy book with indiscipline in Prague during the qualifiers and was, quite rightly, passed over.

1978 was too late for Joe Harper, and perhaps Willie Johnston and if Gray couldn't be trusted for on-field discipline then neither should've Johnston. Derek Johnstone should'nt have been anywhere near the squad.

I'm surprised that Narey made the final 40 in 1978 as it was just before United would prove themselves as a force in Scottish football with two League Cup wins. Hegarty was a couple of years older though and might've been an option as, like McQueen, he was useful in the opposition's box at set plays. However, with McQueen unfit, we don't seem to have many options for the naturally commanding centre-back type role (Roddie MacDonald!!) which maybe forced McLeod's hand slightly to include him although it proved a terribly ill-judged decision. Willie Miller would've definitely made my squad.

As was the way in the 1970s, none of those goalies fill me with any confidence. I assume that was the second David Stewart of Leeds that played in the 1975 European Cup Final rather than Scotland World Cup 1974 star. It's a pity the latter wasn't still an option in 1978 as I've always thought he was a decent keeper for the time.

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games  To be fair to Rough in 1978 though, he had played well at Anfield against Wales; so perhaps worth a try in 1978 with the 1974 David Harvey unavailable but definitely not in 1982 when Leighton had usurped him in quality.

Rough wouldn't have made my Iran team after the Peru match though.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[Bogbrush1903]

12 hours ago, Lurkst said:

Not just internationally, he was in the wilderness at Ibrox until Jock Wallace returned as manager and his improved form earned a Scotland recall.

 

Ah right, so John Greig didn't fancy him. It kinda of shatters the Chick Young mythology of why it was such a disgrace Cooper didn't play more than 22 times when he wasn't even playing regularly for his club side (under both Greig and latterly Souness).

However, we'll be forever indebted for Cooper's efforts in 1986 qualification; holding his nerve in the Cardiff cauldron on September 10th 1985 and for calming nerves with an excellent free-kick opener against Australia.

Unfortunately, it wasn't a prelude for a great 1986 World Cup for Cooper or Scotland though.

It's a pity injury robbed, by this time, veteren Motherwell Cooper from showcasing his talents one final time in 1990...

Edited December 16, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[Marlow]

6 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Again, this list of 40 is scraping the bottom of the barrel but does highlight where we were weakest and the paucity of midfielders are very evident.

Niether McNab, Payne or Fitzpatrick would prove themselves to be international class although the latter might've been if he had landed at Aberdeen in the late 1970s/1980s before the move fell through.

Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were all past their best by 1978, although the latter will forever be remembered for his slaloming run past the Dutch defenders to score Scotland's third. I would've liked to have seen Gemmill play in 1974 perhaps in front of Bremner who was in the twilight of his playing career.

Poor Roy Aitken missed out on 1978 and 1982 but the former was too early for him.

What a pity John Wark wasn't included in the final selection to go to Argentina though.

Up front, Arthur Graham also missed out on 1978 and 1982. 1978 would've been far more likely for him than 1982 though.

Andy Gray, another to miss out in 78 and 82 (would also miss out in 86 too). I think 1978 was his most likeliest (it was unfortunate for him that the 1986 World Cup was just a year too late for him after his brief renaissance at Everton) but he had blotted his copy book with indiscipline in Prague during the qualifiers and was, quite rightly, passed over.

1978 was too late for Joe Harper, and perhaps Willie Johnston and if Gray couldn't be trusted for on-field discipline then neither should've Johnston. Derek Johnstone should'nt have been anywhere near the squad.

I'm surprised that Narey made the final 40 in 1978 as it was just before United would prove themselves as a force in Scottish football with two League Cup wins. Hegarty was a couple of years older though and might've been an option as, like McQueen, he was useful in the opposition's box at set plays. However, with McQueen unfit, we don't seem to have many options for the naturally commanding centre-back type role (Roddie MacDonald!!) which maybe forced McLeod's hand slightly to include him although it proved a terribly ill-judged decision. Willie Miller would've definitely made my squad.

As was the way in the 1970s, none of those goalies fill me with any confidence. I assume that was the second David Stewart of Leeds that played in the 1975 European Cup Final rather than Scotland World Cup 1974 star. It's a pity the latter wasn't still an option in 1978 as I've always thought he was a decent keeper for the time.

Alan Rough!!! Haha, no way... oh wait he made the squad and played in all three games  To be fair to Rough in 1978 though, he had played well at Anfield against Wales; so perhaps worth a try in 1978 with the 1974 David Harvey unavailable but definitely not in 1982 when Leighton had usurped him in quality.

Rough wouldn't have made my Iran team after the Peru match though.

These initial 40s are interesting, but show that the managers probably did mainly take most of the right people. Even if Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were past it, they were still far better players than McNab, Payne and Fitzpatrick. I'd actually argue than none of the three were actually past it, though: Masson and Rioch had been on poor form that season, so their confidence was down, too, and I am fairly sure that Rioch was not 100% fit for the Peru game, but both he and Gemmill did play very well, indeed, in the Holland game.

Willie Miller was actually told by McLeod he would be going as the other central defender if McQueen didn't travel. Unfortunately, Ally and the SFA took an emblematic crock that the entire Scotland medical and physio staff said would never be fit at any stage of the tournament because they found a single doctor who said differently and desperately wanted to believe he would be there for the second round. Personally, I would have had Gray in ahead of Derek Johnstone, however the big guy had scored so many goals that season, and had banged in some in the home internationals, that I do understand his selection. Arthur Graham would have been a saner choice than Willie Johnston.

Jim Blyth had been told by McLeod he was getting a game after Peru, almost certainly against Iran, but McLeod reneged on this, as he did with his decision to play Souness against Iran.

Aitken, Wark, Narey and Hegarty all just too young and inexperienced for a manager to gamble on in 78, I reckon, though Narey was already a superior player to Tam Forsyth and Kenny Burns but I can see why it was felt his time was not yet come.

TBH, I don't think Gemmill would have added anything much in 74: Bremner was great in that tournament and so was Davie Hay. Our flaws were playing Dennis Law in the first match, not going for more goals against Zaire, not using Jimmy Johnstone at all and Dalglish doing zilch over three games.

 

 

[Marlow]

6 hours ago, Bogbrush1903 said:

Ah right, so John Greig didn't fancy him. It kinda of shatters the Chick Young mythology of why it was such a disgrace Cooper didn't play more than 22 times when he wasn't even playing regularly for his club side (under both Greig and latterly Souness).

However, we'll be forever indebted for Cooper's efforts in 1986 qualification; holding his nerve in the Cardiff cauldron on September 10th 1985 and for calming nerves with an excellent free-kick opener against Australia.

Unfortunately, it wasn't a prelude for a great 1986 World Cup for Cooper or Scotland though.

It's a pity injury robbed, by this time, veteren Motherwell Cooper from showcasing his talents one final time in 1990...

Agree with you on all points, though I think Fergie bottled it in 86 and should have given Cooper more of a chance. Cooper and McAvennie might just have got us something, but instead Graeme Sharp and Steve Archibald were allowed to make their usual contributions.

Apparently Cooper's honesty kept him out of the 90 squad: he admitted he would not be fit for the opening match, though he was expected to be ready after that, so wasn't taken. Richard Gough kept quiet about a toe injury, did get taken and only played part of the first game.

Mind you, I could see daft bugger Roxburgh not using Cooper, anyway: he also did not take other super skilful players like Strachan and Nicholas.

Edited December 16, 2021 by Marlow

[Jacksgranda]

8 minutes ago, Marlow said:

 

TBH, I don't think Gemmill would have added anything much in 74: Bremner was great in that tournament and so was Davie Hay. Our flaws were playing Dennis Law in the first match, not going for more goals against Zaire, not using Jimmy Johnstone at all and Dalglish doing zilch over three games.

 

 

Apart from that miss...

[Marlow]

3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

Apart from that miss...

It wasn't an easy chance at all, though.

[Lurkst]

18 minutes ago, Marlow said:

not using Jimmy Johnstone at all

Aye Jinky would've run riot against Zaire. I guess his card was marked after the antics during the Home Internationals. 

 

[Marlow]

1 minute ago, Lurkst said:

Aye Jinky would've run riot against Zaire. I guess his card was marked after the antics during the Home Internationals. 

 

I reckon Jinky could even have run riot against Brazil and or Yugoslavia, too. My old man, who was not a Celtic supporter, spent most of the last two games saying "Bring Johnstone on, bring Johnstone on!" but instead we got Willie Morgan.

 

What is it about Scotland managers not wanting to use our most talented players in World Cups?

[Bogbrush1903]

19 hours ago, Marlow said:

These initial 40s are interesting, but show that the managers probably did mainly take most of the right people. Even if Rioch, Masson and Gemmill were past it, they were still far better players than McNab, Payne and Fitzpatrick. I'd actually argue than none of the three were actually past it, though: Masson and Rioch had been on poor form that season, so their confidence was down, too, and I am fairly sure that Rioch was not 100% fit for the Peru game, but both he and Gemmill did play very well, indeed, in the Holland game.

Willie Miller was actually told by McLeod he would be going as the other central defender if McQueen didn't travel. Unfortunately, Ally and the SFA took an emblematic crock that the entire Scotland medical and physio staff said would never be fit at any stage of the tournament because they found a single doctor who said differently and desperately wanted to believe he would be there for the second round. Personally, I would have had Gray in ahead of Derek Johnstone, however the big guy had scored so many goals that season, and had banged in some in the home internationals, that I do understand his selection. Arthur Graham would have been a saner choice than Willie Johnston.

Jim Blyth had been told by McLeod he was getting a game after Peru, almost certainly against Iran, but McLeod reneged on this, as he did with his decision to play Souness against Iran.

Aitken, Wark, Narey and Hegarty all just too young and inexperienced for a manager to gamble on in 78, I reckon, though Narey was already a superior player to Tam Forsyth and Kenny Burns but I can see why it was felt his time was not yet come.

TBH, I don't think Gemmill would have added anything much in 74: Bremner was great in that tournament and so was Davie Hay. Our flaws were playing Dennis Law in the first match, not going for more goals against Zaire, not using Jimmy Johnstone at all and Dalglish doing zilch over three games.

 

 

I take your point that I might've been flippant regarding Rioch, Masson and Gemmill being "past it" especially given Gemmill's moment of brilliance in the final match ; however, I'll attempt to elaborate.

Now 1978 is slightly before my time before memories (I was only born in 1975) but, for me looking back, Rioch and Masson suddenly seemed to appear from nowhere together in 1976 and then disappeared together after the 1978 World Cup. They sort of came as a double act like Morecombe & Wise or Little & Large. Therefore, what's good for one is good for the other in my view. Both with an Aberdeenshire background.

I know Masson had been integral to the QPR team that rose to title challengers in the 1975/76 which must have been the catalyst for his late career call to Scotland duty. I knew he had scored in the 1976 England match but he actually had a decent scoring rate for a Scottish international playmaker (5 in 17) although he was on the penalties.

He maybe didn't have enough experience away from the English leagues. He seemed to do well in the Home Internationals but only managed 75 minutes in Argentina. Was that through injury or had he been banished for the missed penalty?

I just remember watching Masson for Notts County on a  MoTD circa 1979/80 and he was the veteran of the team, sitting pulling the strings but already a distant memory for the Scottish team.

I was surprised to learn that Rioch was part of the Derby County league title under Dave McKay. Was he a regular in that season? I suppose that's what elevated him to Scotland consideration. Like Masson, a reasonably good scoring average for a Scotland midfielder. However, by 1979 the best playing days for Rioch was all in the past.

Gemmill was also part of the insipid performance against Iran. He did play well against The Netherlands, scoring two although the penalty had far less pressure on it than Masson's against Peru. His goal was legendary assisted by Dutch defenders diving in all around him. If the Dutch had defended like they did against Scotland then they would have struggled to qualify for Argentina let alone reach the final. I'm not saying the Dutch weren't playing at full tilt but let's just say we caught them on a good day.

Again, as with Rioch and Masson, by 1979  his top level playing career was coming end, with his body starting to let him down. He had missed the semi-final and final of the European Cup with Nottingham Forest through injury and that was pretty much it for Gemmill in the top flight apart from a spell with a hopeless Birmingham City side.

Therefore, I just meant that all three were nearing the end of their top flight playing careers where maybe they would've been at there peak at the finals of the 1976 European Championships. The Euro 1976 qualifying took place in 1974/1975 but Masson didn't participate in any of the matches and Gemmill played only in one..

 

In other matters, why wasn't Willie Pettigrew included in the 40? He had done good enough for Scotland only a year or two previous like Masson and Rioch?

 

Edited December 17, 2021 by Bogbrush1903

[nate]

On 13/12/2021 at 21:54, Marlow said:

Still not much of an excuse for literally never having watched them, or had them watched. Arthur Montford said he was embarrassed that the Iranian journalists there were all surprised that McLeod hadn't even sent someone he trusted to watch Iran play and make notes on them in games prior to the World Cup, and when his assistant John Haggart, on his own initiative, went to watch them in training, he reported back to McLeod that they were very athletic, fit and very good at moving around the pitch, which McLeod dismissed by just saying "we'll have too much in our armoury for them".

 

I liked Ally (I met him once and he was really great company and a lovely person) but he was not up to it. Having said that, Stein, Fergie and Roxburgh, for all their preparations, didn't do any better than him in World Cups, I suppose.

John Haggart might have been the only sane man in Scotland in 1978. His observation that Iran were athletic, fit and very mobile is spot on, but no one wanted to know. There’s a prevailing myth that Iran were some kind of 70s version of San Marino or Gibraltar. They weren’t. Prior to their Revolution in 1979 Iranian football had been generously bankrolled by the previous regime. That’s why they had been Asian champions for 10 years and that’s why they cruised their 14 WC qualifiers (won 12, drew 2). Yes, Asian football in those days was not as competitive as it subsequently became, but these stats are indicating they were not the complete dross people wanted to think they were. If only Ally M had a World Soccer subscription at the time he might have been more knowledgable and respectful towards them (likewise Peru x 10).

Back then the WC was still throwing up embarrassing schoolboy scores. (the WCs either side of 78 produced 9-0 and 10-1 gubbings). Iran were too well organised to ever succumb to such defeats. Their 78 showing actually wasn’t too shabby. They conceded 8 goals (4 of them pens), the same number we conceded at the next WC. All things considered they proved to be okay for a bottom seed, if limited up front, and certainly didn’t disgrace themselves in any of their 3 matches down there.
 

We should’ve beaten them for the simple reason we had better players, but the idea that Iran were completely hopeless is another Argentina myth, fed to an ignorant and parochial Scottish public (myself included) by an equally ignorant and parochial media. Argentina 78 basically comes down to this:  we overestimated our own squad and underestimated the opposition. As some posters on this thread have correctly pointed out, the idea that our team - already past its peak -was ever likely to “bring back a medal” is completely laughable. Holland, Peru and Iran was never going to be the cakewalk people imagined it would be.

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 16/12/2021 at 18:35, Marlow said:

It wasn't an easy chance at all, though.

It came at him quickly and he was being pressurised but he was about 3 feet out. He should've scored.

[Mcnpauls]

On 17/12/2021 at 13:33, Bogbrush1903 said:

I take your point that I might've been flippant regarding Rioch, Masson and Gemmill being "past it" especially given Gemmill's moment of brilliance in the final match ; however, I'll attempt to elaborate.

He maybe didn't have enough experience away from the English leagues. He seemed to do well in the Home Internationals but only managed 75 minutes in Argentina. Was that through injury or had he been banished for the missed penalty?

Gemmill was also part of the insipid performance against Iran. He did play well against The Netherlands, scoring two although the penalty had far less pressure on it than Masson's against Peru. His goal was legendary assisted by Dutch defenders diving in all around him. If the Dutch had defended like they did against Scotland then they would have struggled to qualify for Argentina let alone reach the final. I'm not saying the Dutch weren't playing at full tilt but let's just say we caught them on a good day.

Again, as with Rioch and Masson, by 1979  his top level playing career was coming end, with his body starting to let him down. He had missed the semi-final and final of the European Cup with Nottingham Forest through injury and that was pretty much it for Gemmill in the top flight apart from a spell with a hopeless Birmingham City side.

 

I don't think you were flippant at all.  I just think that Rioch and Gemmill showed they weren't past it against Holland. Rioch and Masson did decline quickly after that World Cup, but Gemmill was made captain of Scotland for about another two or three years, including a season in which he was helping Nottingham Forest towards winning the European Cup, as you say.

BTW / Masson's 75 minutes in Argentina would be explained by his poor performance against Peru and then his mad idea of claiming he had taken the same Reactivan as Willy Johnston, even though apparently it wasn't true but he wanted to show solidarity with a mate, which meant that the SFA & McLeod could never have contemplated him playing again.

 

What is baffling was how our playmaker, Masson, was not replaced by our other playmaker, Souness, for the Iran game. McLeod's single worst decision, of quite a lot of bad ones, in that tournament.

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mcnpauls

[Mcnpauls]

On 18/12/2021 at 13:54, nate said:

John Haggart might have been the only sane man in Scotland in 1978. His observation that Iran were athletic, fit and very mobile is spot on, but no one wanted to know. There’s a prevailing myth that Iran were some kind of 70s version of San Marino or Gibraltar. They weren’t. Prior to their Revolution in 1979 Iranian football had been generously bankrolled by the previous regime. That’s why they had been Asian champions for 10 years and that’s why they cruised their 14 WC qualifiers (won 12, drew 2). Yes, Asian football in those days was not as competitive as it subsequently became, but these stats are indicating they were not the complete dross people wanted to think they were. If only Ally M had a World Soccer subscription at the time he might have been more knowledgable and respectful towards them (likewise Peru x 10).

Back then the WC was still throwing up embarrassing schoolboy scores. (the WCs either side of 78 produced 9-0 and 10-1 gubbings). Iran were too well organised to ever succumb to such defeats. Their 78 showing actually wasn’t too shabby. They conceded 8 goals (4 of them pens), the same number we conceded at the next WC. All things considered they proved to be okay for a bottom seed, if limited up front, and certainly didn’t disgrace themselves in any of their 3 matches down there.
 

We should’ve beaten them for the simple reason we had better players, but the idea that Iran were completely hopeless is another Argentina myth, fed to an ignorant and parochial Scottish public (myself included) by an equally ignorant and parochial media. Argentina 78 basically comes down to this:  we overestimated our own squad and underestimated the opposition. As some posters on this thread have correctly pointed out, the idea that our team - already past its peak -was ever likely to “bring back a medal” is completely laughable. Holland, Peru and Iran was never going to be the cakewalk people imagined it would be.

Great post. It's true that the fans with typewriters in the press and media also contributed to this bollocks that the first round would be a walkover, as well as Mcleod and I think some of the players might have chipped in, too.

Good point about us conceding 8 goals in 82 (none of which were penalties or own goals!)

John Haggart comes out of the "78" book by Graham McColl pretty well, especially because he never actually puts the knife into McLeod, admits to his own shortcomings and turned down big money from papers that wanted him to lay into Mcleod post the World Cup. ISTR Arthur Montford was also a rare voice warning before the tournament that Iran deserved respect.