Scotland v Ukraine

[TeeMan]

Without Tierney, McTominay becomes even more important as someone who can carry the ball out and is comfortable running beyond the ball, overloading on the right rather than the left. 

[Donathan]

3 minutes ago, TeeMan said:

Without Tierney, McTominay becomes even more important as someone who can carry the ball out and is comfortable running beyond the ball, overloading on the right rather than the left. 

Yep. If we play a back three then McTominay is absolutely starting at RCB. This idea that playing him in the back three is some patchwork solution is totally outdated. 

[kennie makevin]

41 minutes ago, Satoshi said:

Probably won't find a single Welsh person to agree with your there, appearing once in 1958 compared to qualifying 9 times? They managed one more game than Scotland in the one world cup they managed to get to

It's as painfully one sided as our head to head.

Nothing against Wales, they are a decent side for their size and interest in football. Domestically and internationally they are deep in our shadow and always will be, but that's just the natural order of things.

They way your trolling them it seems to me that you want Wales to win . You write industrial strength nonsense with a dash of racial superiority thrown in ('natural order of things') that can only galvanise the proud boyos.  Have you learned nothing from Max Boyce, you fool !

[2426255]

9 minutes ago, Jacky1990 said:

I wouldnt say McKenna and Cooper are unknown quantities.

McKenna has 24 caps, Cooper 13. Both have played in that left of a three often enough for us to know more or less what we are getting. McKenna is the more interesting option for me to see if a season doing well in that position for Forest has improved his previous limitations. Cooper has never looked particularly comfortable in that wider position but is generally a good defender/leader.

Ahh, okay my bad. I have only been following Scott McKenna and Liam Cooper at club level on a superficial level - highlights, stats and so on and I just assumed that most National team supporters wouldn't have been following in deeper than that.

How do the roles Scott McKenna plays Steve Cooper's Nottingham Forest, Liam Cooper played at Leeds United under Marcelo Bielsa (before he was sacked) differ to how Kieran Tierney is used under Steve Clarke at Scotland?

[craigkillie]

Only the Russians, the Welsh and ourselves will be supporting Scotland.  I am happy for us to pack a wee Ukrainian flag in the kit man’s bag and represent them when we travel to Qatar.

Wales will be wanting Ukraine to win tonight, they are objectively a worse team than us based on qualifying.

[Stellaboz]

Will Wales play a 2nd string team tonight? If Bale plays you have to hope someone takes the c**t out 

[ropy]

7 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Wales will be wanting Ukraine to win tonight, they are objectively a worse team than us based on qualifying.

But they won’t want the ‘we should stand back and let them win’ pish.

[Desp]

I think the team pretty much picks itself tonight.

* McTominay starts at RCB.  With Tierney out, we need someone to bring the ball out from the back.  Nailed on starter.

* McKenna will come in at LCB.  Played on Sunday, but will be fine to play again tonight.  I'm not his biggest fan, but will be floating into camp after the weekend and has spent a lot of time on the left of a back three at Forest.

* O'Donnell at RWB.  Of course he will be.  You could argue all day long over who's better than him, but he rarely lets Scotland down and isn't shy of a great performance in a big game.  

* Adams & Dykes up top.  We'll have a right go tonight.

 

                               Gordon

        McTominay Hanley McKenna

O'Donnell Gilmour McGregor Roberson

                              McGinn

                       Dykes Adams

[G51]

3 minutes ago, TeeMan said:

Without Tierney, McTominay becomes even more important as someone who can carry the ball out and is comfortable running beyond the ball, overloading on the right rather than the left. 

Souttar and Hendry are perfectly adequate at stepping out with the ball IMO. Both players do it regularly.

And I don't think overloading the right will work. If you're Ukraine, who are you worried about in this Scotland team? With Tierney out, it's almost certainly Andy Robertson. He's our best player and our main threat. So you're going to try and stop Scotland playing through him, because he's the most dangerous player. You probably do that by doing one of two things, depending on how you play defence: if you play man-for-man, you'll simply double him with two players - some combo of fullback/wide midfielder/winger, whoever your spare man is. If you play zone defence, you're going to make sure that whatever two players have defensive responsibility for him, to quote Neil Warnock, "enjoy it by staying fucking disciplined here". It'd be very, very difficult to isolate Robertson 1v1 against a Ukrainian player - they'll set up specifically to stop us doing that.

Theory: this is also why the "Robertson never plays well for Scotland" stuff exists. With Liverpool, teams set up to stop TAA and Salah, giving Robertson a lot more space. With Scotland, it's the exact opposite. It doesn't mean Robertson doesn't play well for Scotland, it just means he doesn't produce like he does for Liverpool because teams specifically set up to stop him and Tierney. He has to play a different game for us - it's less about driving into space and whipping in crosses, and more about being able to play quick, sharp passes and one-two's.

 

[welshbairn]

34 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Aye. 

"Ho, ho mo leannan Ho mo leannan bhoidheach" 

 

Might as well do it properly and include this often missed line.

"Carson nach eil thu ann an Donbas?"

[eez-eh]

23 minutes ago, G51 said:

Souttar and Hendry are perfectly adequate at stepping out with the ball IMO. Both players do it regularly.

And I don't think overloading the right will work. If you're Ukraine, who are you worried about in this Scotland team? With Tierney out, it's almost certainly Andy Robertson. He's our best player and our main threat. So you're going to try and stop Scotland playing through him, because he's the most dangerous player. You probably do that by doing one of two things, depending on how you play defence: if you play man-for-man, you'll simply double him with two players - some combo of fullback/wide midfielder/winger, whoever your spare man is. If you play zone defence, you're going to make sure that whatever two players have defensive responsibility for him, to quote Neil Warnock, "enjoy it by staying fucking disciplined here". It'd be very, very difficult to isolate Robertson 1v1 against a Ukrainian player - they'll set up specifically to stop us doing that.

Theory: this is also why the "Robertson never plays well for Scotland" stuff exists. With Liverpool, teams set up to stop TAA and Salah, giving Robertson a lot more space. With Scotland, it's the exact opposite. It doesn't mean Robertson doesn't play well for Scotland, it just means he doesn't produce like he does for Liverpool because teams specifically set up to stop him and Tierney. He has to play a different game for us - it's less about driving into space and whipping in crosses, and more about being able to play quick, sharp passes and one-two's.

 

Everything you’ve said there about Robertson being targeted sounds like the exact reason why you would want to overload on the right.

[Jacky1990]

39 minutes ago, G51 said:

Theory: this is also why the "Robertson never plays well for Scotland" stuff exists. With Liverpool, teams set up to stop TAA and Salah, giving Robertson a lot more space. With Scotland, it's the exact opposite. It doesn't mean Robertson doesn't play well for Scotland, it just means he doesn't produce like he does for Liverpool because teams specifically set up to stop him and Tierney. He has to play a different game for us - it's less about driving into space and whipping in crosses, and more about being able to play quick, sharp passes and one-two's.

 

The reason why Robertson gets so much more space for Liverpool is because he has Sadio Mane/Luis Diaz in front of him, who both spend most the game going inside which takes the full back in towards the centre of the pitch. Robertson is then able to drive from deep into the space they leave behind. 

You are right that he has to play differently for us, but its not because teams double up on him, its because he plays the majority of the game with no-one in front of him for us, so he ends of squaring off against a full back who normally wouldnt be there when he plays for Liverpool (because Mane/Diaz take them inside). 

Edited June 1, 2022 by Jacky1990

[jimbaxters]

Won't Christie get a start tonight?

[G51]

1 minute ago, eez-eh said:

Everything you’ve said there about Robertson being targeted sounds like the exact reason why you would want to overload on the right.

But if you overload on the right, and can't switch the play to the left because you're 1v1 is now a 1v2, then you have to be able to play through the right hand side. Which means you're asking McTominay (in this hypothetical), our RWB (should be Hickey but could be O' Donnell) and Gilmour to play through that. Only Gilmour (and maybe Hickey) is actually any good at doing that. McTominay isn't a player who can play through a press or play intricate one-two's, that's not his game. He's a brilliant athlete that loves a transitional game. It's a useful skill set for certain games, but not one in which we're heavy favourites.

 

[2426255]

4 minutes ago, G51 said:

But if you overload on the right, and can't switch the play to the left because you're 1v1 is now a 1v2, then you have to be able to play through the right hand side. Which means you're asking McTominay (in this hypothetical), our RWB (should be Hickey but could be O' Donnell) and Gilmour to play through that. Only Gilmour (and maybe Hickey) is actually any good at doing that. McTominay isn't a player who can play through a press or play intricate one-two's, that's not his game. He's a brilliant athlete that loves a transitional game. It's a useful skill set for certain games, but not one in which we're heavy favourites.

 

John McGinn regularly has helped with right sided overloads. Lyndon Dykes and Che Adams maybe aren't so obvious but both of them do as well. 

Edited June 1, 2022 by 2426255

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

3 minutes ago, jimbaxters said:

Won't Christie get a start tonight?

I'd expect it to be Christie - Adam - McGinn.

Unless, Ukraine are suspect to a more physical approach?  I'd imagine Christie suits this game, and it was working well in Dykes' absence.

[No_Problemo]

6 minutes ago, G51 said:

But if you overload on the right, and can't switch the play to the left because you're 1v1 is now a 1v2, then you have to be able to play through the right hand side. Which means you're asking McTominay (in this hypothetical), our RWB (should be Hickey but could be O' Donnell) and Gilmour to play through that. Only Gilmour (and maybe Hickey) is actually any good at doing that. McTominay isn't a player who can play through a press or play intricate one-two's, that's not his game. He's a brilliant athlete that loves a transitional game. It's a useful skill set for certain games, but not one in which we're heavy favourites.

 

McTominay can absolutely do that when he is coming from deep, and has done numerous times driving forward from RCB. 

[accies1874]

Won't Christie get a start tonight?

I'd say it's pretty likely he'll start but there's still a chance Dykes will play with Adams.

[2426255]

3 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I'd expect it to be Christie - Adam - McGinn.

Unless, Ukraine are suspect to a more physical approach?  I'd imagine Christie suits this game, and it was working well in Dykes' absence.

Ryan Christie would give more strength to our left side in the absence of Kieran Tierney unless as you said Ukraine are particularly weak against physical attacks. It's all dependent on things we don't know.

[G51]

7 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

John McGinn regularly has helped with right sided overloads. Lyndon Dykes and Che Adams maybe aren't so obvious but both of them do as well. 

True. But I don't necessarily see that as a good thing, because I prefer McGinn in the penalty box. That's our primary goal threat. If we get a chance and I can have one of those three taking the shot, I'm wanting McGinn on the end of it.