Third Tier Champions No Return Streak

[invergowrie arab]

After hearing the guys on this week's Terrace pod making the point about 3rd tier champions rarely struggling in tier 2 I went and had a look. It seems even more than they don't struggle the following year but none of the 9 T3 champions since 2011/12 Cowdenbeath have even ever been back to T3.

Queens, Rangers, Morton, Dunfermline, Livi, Ayr,Arbroath, Raith and Thistle.

I know there is only 1 automatic relegation  spot but that seems remarkable.

Is there a longer no return streak at any other point in Scottish football or any other leagues? Could also include relegated teams never coming back up a league.

Need Hamilton relegated this year to extend the streak or Queens to maintain it at 9.

Edited November 22, 2021 by invergowrie arab

[BFTD]

It's something of an oddity in our league structure that there are almost exactly as many full-time teams in Scotland as there are places in the top two divisions. Maybe it's actually planned that way? As a result, in any given season you'll end up with one or two full-time teams who've had a shitemare (and often problems off the field) and drop down to League One. A season (or two, or three...) against easier opponents gives them the opportunity to sort out their problems and return to the Championship stronger than before, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that they can avoid relegation for a while, at least.

It helps the full-time clubs that there's almost guaranteed to be at least one semi-pro club in the Championship, and they'll usually be involved in the relegation battle. As a result, it's actually quite difficult for any halfway-functional pro club to finish bottom of the pile. What a nightmare this season is turning out to be for clubs like Queens and Morton.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

24 minutes ago, BFTD said:

It's something of an oddity in our league structure that there are almost exactly as many full-time teams in Scotland as there are places in the top two divisions. Maybe it's actually planned that way? As a result, in any given season you'll end up with one or two full-time teams who've had a shitemare (and often problems off the field) and drop down to League One. A season (or two, or three...) against easier opponents gives them the opportunity to sort out their problems and return to the Championship stronger than before, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that they can avoid relegation for a while, at least.

It helps the full-time clubs that there's almost guaranteed to be at least one semi-pro club in the Championship, and they'll usually be involved in the relegation battle. As a result, it's actually quite difficult for any halfway-functional pro club to finish bottom of the pile. What a nightmare this season is turning out to be for clubs like Queens and Morton and Falkirk.

Just a wee amendment there.

[BFTD]

6 minutes ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

Just a wee amendment there.

You're just going through your Dunfermline stage. Just think, another season or two down here and you could end up where they are now.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

5 minutes ago, BFTD said:

You're just going through your Dunfermline stage. Just think, another season or two down here and you could end up where they are now.

Feels more like an Airdrie stage tbh. Or, in the worst situation, a Clyde one.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 hours ago, BFTD said:

It helps the full-time clubs that there's almost guaranteed to be at least one semi-pro club in the Championship, and they'll usually be involved in the relegation battle. As a result, it's actually quite difficult for any halfway-functional pro club to finish bottom of the pile. What a nightmare this season is turning out to be for clubs like Queens and Morton.

On the other hand teams like ourselves, QotS and Ayr are really searching the dregs of full time football in Scotland. Arbroath and, previously yourselves, managed to get themselves in a position where they almost become a "best of..." part time players. These guys are usually just as good, if not better, than the worst of the full time players but us jobbers have no chance of signing them as our full time wage can't complete with their part time wage + day job. If there's only one part time team in the 2nd tier and they play it well it certainly has benefits

[HibeeJibee]

I suppose what OP's point really boils down to is that full-time teams who flirt with relegation in tier 2 don't tend to "yo-yo"... they either stay up, or if they go down they come back up and keep clear thereafter, or they don't come back at all (like Falkirk).

In contrast... Airdrie went up and came straight back down; Cowdenbeath and Alloa went up, survived 2 year then came back down; Brechin went up and came straight back; Dumbarton stood a while but ultimately dropped fell; Alloa went up again, survived 2 years again then came back. Plus you've Arbroath present just now.

Arguably what's putting the current bottom 5 in a pickle is that every full-time club except for Falkirk is in the division, and Arbroath are excelling. If the Red Lichties were scraping about at the bottom alongside 1 or 2 more part-timers only a full-time club seriously underperforming would be in that fight. Of course 'new blood' like Cove, QP and in time Kelty may upset this applecart.

Edited November 22, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[ATLIS]

To be fair it can seem a bit skewed with the inclusion of Livi and Rangers given the extraordinary circumstances surrounding both club's ending up in the 3rd tier in recent years. Not so much us going down and coming back up at the first time of asking but the demotion to the 4th tier.

I remember the Livi board apologising to other sides after we won the league in our demotion year, we stayed full time in League 2 and just walked it. There's possibly a lot to be said for momentum within teams who go up, we won back to back title in tiers 4>3 then settled comfortably into tier 2. Same case can be made for our League 1 winning team under Hopkin where, with one of the smallest budgets, we rolled into the Championship with a winning mentality, finished 2nd and went up.

When we went down to League 1 we were taken over, I think, a couple of months before relegation was confirmed, but there were serious talks about financial stability and keeping the club living within its means at the time. A decision was made to stay full time and get a quick return to the Championship, and it worked out. That was a huge gamble though and if we didn't end up going up then we would've went part time and probably would've been kicking about League 1/2 for eternity. Even though we won the league by 19 points it says a lot that our closest rivals were Alloa, Airdrie and Brechin, League 1 seems a lot harder now with more ambitious teams entering the league system. Brechin came up in the playoffs despite being 31 points behind us and it might've been the worst thing to ever happen to them. A winless season, back to back relegations and then they're out the trapdoor at the bottom now. 

Edited November 22, 2021 by ATLIS

[BFTD]

Brechin are a weird case. They made a conscious decision to stay frugal in the Championship in order to avoid spending outwith their means, even if it meant that they came straight back down. Not what any fan wants their club to do, but it made sense. Yet they just kept losing and lost their SPFL place. Cowdenbeath came incredibly close to doing the same thing.

Why does that happen? In theory, both clubs should have come down to the seaside leagues slightly better off. It can't be as simple as developing a losing mentality that's hard to shake off, surely. We're the recent exception, and the only difference I can think of is that we overcharge supporters, and presumably have a slightly bigger budget as a result. I'd hate to think that's the answer.

[TxRover]

I would point out that despite being in the Championship as a draw to “top” part-time players, location plays an integral part to part-time player signing decisions and can easily handicap a team seeking certain players who have established jobs that don’t easily transfer or move.

[tamthebam]

When I started going to games in the mid 1980s just about all clubs outside the Premier Division were part time and part time teams like Forfar, Meadowbank and East Fife did well in the 2nd tier for a season or two. I think Clydebank may even have had part time players when they were a Premier Division club 

This full time club stuff is new fangled nonsense to an old fart like me.

 

[BFTD]

3 hours ago, tamthebam said:

When I started going to games in the mid 1980s just about all clubs outside the Premier Division were part time and part time teams like Forfar, Meadowbank and East Fife did well in the 2nd tier for a season or two. I think Clydebank may even have had part time players when they were a Premier Division club 

This full time club stuff is new fangled nonsense to an old fart like me.

Different days. There were still professional players who openly smoked back then, and drinking wasn't considered as much of a problem. Fitness levels are a different beast altogether now.

Fans of any part-time clubs who've played regularly against full-timers in recent seasons will be familiar with the ritual of the frantic final twenty minutes in defence, even if they've been well in control up to then; that can only be due to a difference in stamina, and it has a cumulative effect over a season. A very good part-time side firing on all cylinders can still do well in the Championship, as Arbroath and Dumbarton have proved in the past decade, but it's much harder for them now. Survival's an achievement in itself.

[ecto]

On 22/11/2021 at 16:56, BFTD said:

Brechin are a weird case. They made a conscious decision to stay frugal in the Championship in order to avoid spending outwith their means, even if it meant that they came straight back down. Not what any fan wants their club to do, but it made sense. Yet they just kept losing and lost their SPFL place. Cowdenbeath came incredibly close to doing the same thing.

Why does that happen? In theory, both clubs should have come down to the seaside leagues slightly better off. It can't be as simple as developing a losing mentality that's hard to shake off, surely. We're the recent exception, and the only difference I can think of is that we overcharge supporters, and presumably have a slightly bigger budget as a result. I'd hate to think that's the answer.

The Brechin one is weird on many levels, won both play off games on penalties, decided to not spend money they didn't have, kind of excepted relegation, but for a club that over achieved for the past 40 yrs, completely imploded, recruited appallingly, made terrible management appointments, things they had gotten pretty much spot on for the past 40 yrs, oddly enough by the same board of directors, but suppose when the stench of defeat set in, just couldn't stem the flow

[Todd_is_God]

On 22/11/2021 at 00:24, invergowrie arab said:

Is there a longer no return streak at any other point in Scottish football or any other leagues? Could also include relegated teams never coming back up a league.

Since winning Tier 4 in 2000/01, Hamilton have been relegated just twice - both times from Tier 1

I don't know if it's a record, but it seems like an oddity.

[Skyline Drifter]

On 07/01/2022 at 23:22, Todd_is_God said:

Since winning Tier 4 in 2000/01, Hamilton have been relegated just twice - both times from Tier 1

I don't know if it's a record, but it seems like an oddity.

What kind of a record would it be? Queen of the South have been relegated once since 1989 (in 2012). 

As far as I am aware Aberdeen and Celtic have never been relegated. I expect Rangers would claim they havent been either though thats a whole different can of worms.

[Todd_is_God]

7 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

What kind of a record would it be? Queen of the South have been relegated once since 1989 (in 2012). 

Maybe record was the wrong phrase, but in terms of "no return streaks" it is a definite oddity that a club who won T4 have only been relegated from T1 since in over 20 years.

Going from T4 > T1 is an effort in itself, never mind without a blip in between. A feat matched, I think, only by Rangers.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

8 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

What kind of a record would it be? Queen of the South have been relegated once since 1989 (in 2012). 

As far as I am aware Aberdeen and Celtic have never been relegated. I expect Rangers would claim they havent been either though thats a whole different can of worms.

They haven't been relegated. They went bust.

47 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Maybe record was the wrong phrase, but in terms of "no return streaks" it is a definite oddity that a club who won T4 have only been relegated from T1 since in over 20 years.

Going from T4 > T1 is an effort in itself, never mind without a blip in between. A feat matched, I think, only by Rangers.

Remember they did stall in the championship for a year. 

[German Jag]

1 hour ago, Todd_is_God said:

Maybe record was the wrong phrase, but in terms of "no return streaks" it is a definite oddity that a club who won T4 have only been relegated from T1 since in over 20 years.

Going from T4 > T1 is an effort in itself, never mind without a blip in between. A feat matched, I think, only by Rangers.

Gretna did it as well.

[Todd_is_God]

7 minutes ago, German Jag said:

Gretna did it as well.

I completely forgot Gretna existed

[BFTD]

10 hours ago, Skyline Drifter said:

What kind of a record would it be? Queen of the South have been relegated once since 1989 (in 2012). 

As far as I am aware Aberdeen and Celtic have never been relegated. I expect Rangers would claim they havent been either though thats a whole different can of worms.

The Rangers absolutely do claim they were relegated. To do otherwise would mean facing up to the reality of what happened to their old club.