Celtic v Hibernian. League Cup final, 19th December

[WeeMentalDavie]

13 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Yes, because leaving at 2pm from my house would absolutely ensure I would be in my seat for ko time.................

If Aberdeen, Inverness or Ross County  were involved, what time do you suggest they leave?

What time did you leave Glasgow for the match v Hearts at Murrayfield, as a matter of interest?

You said a stupid time in the morning, not 2pm. There is a big difference between the two. 

What relevance do they have to the M8?

Can't remember given it was over 3 years ago.

[lubo_blaha]

I'm quite surprised at this decision to be honest, I expected a 50/50 split but there are two sides, each with valid points to the argument, our supporters bus for example ran buses to the Hearts and Raith Rovers matches, both full with about 40 plus on each occasion and on Saturday we ran two buses (albeit sharing one with a slightly smaller local CSC) and had about 60 of our members in attendance, the last couple of evenly split cup finals we have received about 25 to 30 tickets meaning at least a third of our season ticket holders missed out, a few more who attended these games should now get a ticket for the League Cup Final, and some people will be of the opinion those people are more deserving of a ticket than some day trippers from the opposition who barely go at all.

Funnily enough, Hearts and Raith season tickets holders were locked out of those matches whilst thousands of seats laid empty.

[AndyM]

13 hours ago, Flybhoy said:

Another point worth making, and it's not necessarily what I believe, just giving a flip to the coin of what is a very one sided argument on this thread is that Hibernian, who have I hear around 8000 season ticket holders have enough tickets for each of them to purchase one for themselves and one for a friend or relative, when looking at it barely on that fact it is still a reasonable allocation. 

 

You've heard wrong.

Hibs and Hearts both have around 13,000 Season Ticket holders each. For the Jambos on here, next time you make a final against one of the arsecheeks, forget 50/50 splits.  

[HibeeJibee]

Celtic average considerably bigger crowds than Rangers e.g. in 2019-20 was 58,000 versus 49,000.

How are tickets allocated when they meet? Presumably not 50/50?

[Leith Green]

Cut and paste reply that Neil Doncaster is sending pissed off Hibs fans who email him direct - 

 

Thank you for your email and for contacting me with your concerns.

I presume that you are a Hibernian FC supporter and if so, I hope very much that you enjoyed your day at Hampden Park on Sunday and are looking forward to what should be a fantastic final on Sunday 19 December.

Ticket allocation decisions are often difficult and there are many factors which need to be taken into account by the SPFL and the Stadium Authorities, including the history of sales in semi-finals and finals, and the limited segregation options within Hampden Park.

In this instance, the agreed initial ticket allocations will ensure that every Hibernian supporter who was at the match on Sunday will have the opportunity to buy a ticket for the final, with a minimum of a further 8,000 tickets available. In contrast, over 12,000 Celtic supporters who were at Saturday's semi-final tie will not have the opportunity to buy a ticket for the final.

It is important also to note that these numbers are initial allocations only and there will likely be the opportunity for further allocations to both clubs depending on sales.

It is in fact quite a common occurrence for one team in a final to be allocated more tickets than their opponents. Indeed, the 2016 Scottish League Cup final saw Hibernian receive an initial allocation of 25,800 tickets (with Ross County getting 7,000).

I understand that the decision may be disappointing to you, but I do hope that you recognise the rationale outlined above.

Kind regards,

Neil

[Buddie Holly]

hibs had 10k fans at the semi but they want more than double that for the final

i wish the fakes had got to the final to see how many tickets they’d have asked for all they done was greet about no fans getting to hampden last season then when fans are allowed in they take 2000 you couldn’t make it up

[kingjoey]

2 hours ago, Leith Green said:

info@spfl.co.uk should anyone wish to complain

Complaint sent, and I made sure that it was known that I am not a Hibs fan.

[Leith Green]

4 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Complaint sent, and I made sure that it was known that I am not a Hibs fan.

Aye, but deep down Joey, really really deep down 

[HibeeJibee]

4 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Cut and paste reply that Neil Doncaster is sending pissed off Hibs fans who email him direct - 

...

It is important also to note that these numbers are initial allocations only and there will likely be the opportunity for further allocations to both clubs depending on sales.

Only minorly (unusued neutrals/debentures/etc.) as Celtic won't return tickets?
 

5 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

It is in fact quite a common occurrence for one team in a final to be allocated more tickets than their opponents. Indeed, the 2016 Scottish League Cup final saw Hibernian receive an initial allocation of 25,800 tickets (with Ross County getting 7,000).

Ross County received as many tickets as they could sell.

It does show Hibs could fill 50% if allowed, though.

[smpar]

Not a massive shock to anyone that Neil Doncaster started dribbling irrelevant pish over this.

[kingjoey]

28 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

Aye, but deep down Joey, really really deep down 

Sorry for the delay in replying. I have been violently sick after reading that. (Don’t tell anybody, but I will want you to win on 19th December. But then hoping you get a gubbing on 22nd)

[Insert Amusing Pseudonym]

What an absolute shock that Doncaster can just write any pish he likes with no comeback.

The history of sales in semi finals should have zero to do with a final.

[10menwent2mow]

20 hours ago, Judy Murray said:

Cup finals should be 50-50 obviously. It’s a neutral match. Celtic/Rangers having their own “end” at Hampden is ludicrous also. 

This. The way Hampden should be allocated should be on a north/south basis rather than East/west. Semi a few years ago against rangers when Ferguson scored the winner. Aberdeen were allocated basically the Celtic end, meaning we had shite seats. Start at the half way line in the north stand and go both ways from there, meaning if you can't sell 50/50 or are going to put tickets back, then the smaller club will have been allocated the whole of the North stand and all have decent seats where the bigger club (arsecheek) can have both ends and the south. Simple. 

[Leith Green]

I got a slightly different reply from doncaster - here is the text and my followup (I had asked him about the currant buns chucking stuff from behind us).

Thank you for your email and for contacting me with your concerns.

I presume that you are a Hibernian FC supporter and if so, I hope very much that you enjoyed your day at Hampden Park on Sunday and are looking forward to what should be a fantastic final on Sunday 19 December.

Ticket allocation decisions are often difficult and there are many factors which need to be taken into account by the SPFL and the Stadium Authorities, including the history of sales in semi-finals and finals, and the limited segregation options within Hampden Park.

In this instance, the agreed initial ticket allocations will ensure that every Hibernian supporter who was at the match on Sunday will have the opportunity to buy a ticket for the final, with a minimum of a further 8,000 tickets available. In contrast, over 12,000 Celtic supporters who were at Saturday’s semi-final tie will not have the opportunity to buy a ticket for the final.

It is important also to note that these numbers are initial allocations only and there will likely be the opportunity for further allocations to both clubs depending on sales.

It is in fact quite a common occurrence for one team in a final to be allocated more tickets than their opponents. Indeed, the 2016 Scottish League Cup final saw Hibernian receive an initial allocation of 25,800 tickets (with Ross County getting 7,000). In 2004, Hibernian had around 37,000 fans in a crowd of 45,000 for their CIS Cup final against Livingston. Equally, it is very common for fans of one club to be sitting above fans of another at Hampden.

I understand that the decision may be disappointing to you, but I do hope that you recognise the rationale outlined above.

Kind regards,

Neil

My follow up below -

Hi Neil,

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

While there are some aspects of your response that seem reasonable, but I need to pick you up on some key issues.

On ticketing - In the case of the two matches you mention (and you could have said the match v Kilmarnock in 2007 - before your time) both Ross County and Livingston will have been asked what they could reasonably expect to attend. And frankly, had the answer been 50%, then I would not have had any complaints as that is fair in a National Cup Final.

That Hibs sold a large number of tickets for these - dare I say less attractive - matches should be an indicator for you that we would have had no problem selling 50% of this one !

Sporting integrity would have had you start with 50% and - had Hibs been unable to sell quickly enough then the remaining tickets could have gone to Celtic.

You have mentioned the respective semi finals - so perhaps I should ask, if Rangers had made the final, would you have taken account of the fact that their attendance at the semi final was circa 35000, and Celtics was circa 42000?

I think we both know the answer to that one, and both teams would have been treated equally.

If you are using attendances at semi finals, then perhaps you need to consider the neutrality of the venue and the fact that fans of both Hibs and St Johnstone were effectively travelling to an away game in the home town of both opponents.

Indeed, Celtic Park is not just in the same city, it is almost in the same post code as Hampden, visible from the South Upper.............

I happen to think you have a difficult job, but treating fans of every club outside of Rangers and Celtic with what I class as disdain smacks of an organisation that is desperate to give these clubs yet another advantage - even with the inherent financial and location advantages they already have.

It is poor but frankly predictable stuff.

Finally - you know the history between Rangers and Hibs. I was in the south stand on Sunday and missiles were thrown from the upper deck. It is unacceptable and to gloss over it is unhelpful.

I am copying this to Keiran Power and Ben Kensell at Hibs in the hope that they can see the depth of feeling that some season ticket holders have on this issue.

[Aylo vanal]

The old firm getting thier "end" at finals is another unfair advantage. 

Finals should start with a 50/50 allocations if its not sold by x date pass on to the other teams. Pretty simple but we have the authorities who pander to two teams. 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

I'm pretty sure that the dribbling pish from Doncaster is a copy and paste of the SFA communication sent to Aberdeen fans when we first brought up the 'tradition' of unfair ticket allocations back in 2000. 

I'm not a Hibs fan, but that e-mail is infuriating. 

It starts off with the premiss that one club is 'entitled' to more tickets, simply because they have a bigger fan base. And then he uses a set of irrelevant statistics to try and justify this premiss. 

At absolutely no point does he even try to introduce the fact that it's a NEUTRAL cup final at a NEUTRAL venue, nor does he entertain the fact that Hibs are more than capable of selling a 50% allocation and have on several occassions in the recent past. 

God, sometimes I detest Scottish football and the clowns who run it into the ground. 

 

 

[Chonky]

How is this still an issue in the modern age?

Who has authority over this? Surly there is enough teams to push through a 50-50 split guarantee.  What are club owners doing? Can they not all get together and put pressure on SFA/SPFL.

Doncaster's argument about limited segregation in the stadium is a lie. There is plenty of segregation options, you just need to rejig the layout a bit.

I also agree it is now time to end the traditional ends of the stadium. Out of date nonesence.

[Leith Green]

21 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

I'm pretty sure that the dribbling pish from Doncaster is a copy and paste of the SFA communication sent to Aberdeen fans when we first brought up the 'tradition' of unfair ticket allocations back in 2000. 

I'm not a Hibs fan, but that e-mail is infuriating. 

It starts off with the premiss that one club is 'entitled' to more tickets, simply because they have a bigger fan base. And then he uses a set of irrelevant statistics to try and justify this premiss. 

At absolutely no point does he even try to introduce the fact that it's a NEUTRAL cup final at a NEUTRAL venue, nor does he entertain the fact that Hibs are more than capable of selling a 50% allocation and have on several occassions in the recent past. 

God, sometimes I detest Scottish football and the clowns who run it into the ground. 

 

 

His latest reply !

 

Thanks for your further comments ya Hibby p***k

While we would always ask competing clubs what numbers of tickets they would expect to sell, we would exercise our own independent judgement, based on many years of organising cup ties at neutral venues.  It is the job of SPFL staff to determine the fairest outcome in terms of stadium splits and ticket allocations, taking into account all the circumstances.

It is not the case that the SPFL could have started off with a 50/50 split and then, if Hibernian demand were insufficient, then moved to a different split.  The first decision on splits is always whether to split the North Stand 50/50 or 100/0 (no other splits are possible in the North Stand).  There is not scope, due to the configuration of the stadium to reverse this initial decision.

You are not correct in relation to numbers of tickets sold by each of Celtic and Rangers for last weekend’s ties.  The actual numbers were circa 37,000 and 34,000 respectively, which would have justified a 50/50 split of the stadium if both those teams had reached the final.

Regardless of how many tickets are sold by Celtic and Hibernian, each club will benefit equally in financial terms from the gate money.

Finally, I note your comments regarding the location of Hampden.  However, Hampden Park is the national stadium and where the Scottish FA and the SPFL are both based.

[kingjoey]

14 minutes ago, Leith Green said:

His latest reply !

 

Thanks for your further comments ya Hibby p***k

While we would always ask competing clubs what numbers of tickets they would expect to sell, we would exercise our own independent judgement, based on many years of organising cup ties at neutral venues.  It is the job of SPFL staff to determine the fairest outcome in terms of stadium splits and ticket allocations, taking into account all the circumstances.

It is not the case that the SPFL could have started off with a 50/50 split and then, if Hibernian demand were insufficient, then moved to a different split.  The first decision on splits is always whether to split the North Stand 50/50 or 100/0 (no other splits are possible in the North Stand).  There is not scope, due to the configuration of the stadium to reverse this initial decision.

You are not correct in relation to numbers of tickets sold by each of Celtic and Rangers for last weekend’s ties.  The actual numbers were circa 37,000 and 34,000 respectively, which would have justified a 50/50 split of the stadium if both those teams had reached the final.

Regardless of how many tickets are sold by Celtic and Hibernian, each club will benefit equally in financial terms from the gate money.

Finally, I note your comments regarding the location of Hampden.  However, Hampden Park is the national stadium and where the Scottish FA and the SPFL are both based.

Apart from the opening sentence, that’s genuine?

[Leith Green]

5 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

Apart from the opening sentence, that’s genuine?

100%