West of Scotland League the future…?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

I think its pretty clear from the cup results, quality of sides in the league and the general better run league system in comparison to the Lowland League that the WOSL is a vastly superior product and standard (with a couple of LL teams in exception). This includes the added bonus of no ‘colt teams’ (anyone else cringe at grown adults using this term??). 
Social media product is excellent, sponsorship and outreach brilliant too for such a new/emerging brand. The leadership need to take a bow especially with the way they’ve been able to let the clubs retaining sjfa membership hold on to their identity. 
This begs the question, shouldn’t given the LL’s inability to sort itself out, should the decent/well run teams in the LL and the better run east clubs not breakaway and rejig the tier 5-9 structure, none of this 3 way play offs to replace teams with no business in the fifth tier of Scottish football, just get it right, have clubs make an honest assessment and put in place a decent structure for every club to thrive. The idea that a league in tier 6 has far better clubs, better supported clubs and facilities etc isn’t going to help when there’s no direct promotion for the winners of the East and West Leagues. 
We absolutely need a full overhaul and reform of the pyramid down in the lower half of Scotland, id be interested to hear folks ideas? Also for those club reps on here, is there any proposal being taken forward?

Edited November 21, 2021 by Inanimate Carbon Rod

[Killiepiyo]

I remember taking a doing on here for my opinion of needing a top flight over a load of conferences and really glad things have progressed well. Recognise that some felt it was unfair but as a fan its been great.

Shake up would be good as barring a few teams it looks like if anyone goes up it’s a bit of a desert next season. Player will enjoy testing themselves but whoever goes up will miss a lot of the big league games we’ve had this year is my worry. 

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think its pretty clear from the cup results, quality of sides in the league and the general better run league system in comparison to the Lowland League that the WOSL is a vastly superior product and standard (with a couple of LL teams in exception). This includes the added bonus of no ‘colt teams’ (anyone else cringe at grown adults using this term??). 
Social media product is excellent, sponsorship and outreach brilliant too for such a new/emerging brand. The leadership need to take a bow especially with the way they’ve been able to let the clubs retaining sjfa membership hold on to their identity. 
This begs the question, shouldn’t given the LL’s inability to sort itself out, should the decent/well run teams in the LL and the better run east clubs not breakaway and rejig the tier 5-9 structure, none of this 3 way play offs to replace teams with no business in the fifth tier of Scottish football, just get it right, have clubs make an honest assessment and put in place a decent structure for every club to thrive. The idea that a league in tier 6 has far better clubs, better supported clubs and facilities etc isn’t going to help when there’s no direct promotion for the winners of the East and West Leagues. 
We absolutely need a full overhaul and reform of the pyramid down in the lower half of Scotland, id be interested to hear folks ideas? Also for those club reps on here, is there any proposal being taken forward?

We don't need a full overhaul, we simply need more promotion/relegation spots to/from the LL where the winners of the WoS and EoS are auto promoted at the very least, that needs sorted asap by the LL board.  Remember, most clubs in the EoS and all clubs in the WoS were late to the party when it comes to the Pyramid, so can't all of a sudden demand this and that happens at tier 5. However, more "ventilation" has to happen and quickly.

I'd also point out "holding onto SJFA membership" is not a positive if you're wanting a "full overhaul".

[Killiepiyo]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'd also point out "holding onto SJFA membership" is not a positive if you're wanting a "full overhaul".

Aside from identity there is no other cup other than the big scottish that comes close in respect of prize money for the later rounds. Someone told me you only get £1000 for winning the west and get nothing for the likes of the challenge cup. Still a bit of work to do.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Killiepiyo said:

Aside from identity there is no other cup other than the big scottish that comes close in respect of prize money for the later rounds. Someone told me you only get £1000 for winning the west and get nothing for the likes of the challenge cup. Still a bit of work to do.

It's a guarantee not prize money and only for the semis and final. I think most people would associate the "later rounds" of a competition with 7-8 rounds to take in the last half. Not just the final two.

The work is also being done in trying to create a new national non-league cup. Even the SJFA are trying to change the Junior Cup to accommadate everyone. Using the promise of prize money coming from sponsors that don't currently exist in the hopes they don't resort to burning through their savings to cover the cost.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

21 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

We don't need a full overhaul, we simply need more promotion/relegation spots to/from the LL where the winners of the WoS and EoS are auto promoted at the very least, that needs sorted asap by the LL board.  Remember, most clubs in the EoS and all clubs in the WoS were late to the party when it comes to the Pyramid, so can't all of a sudden demand this and that happens at tier 5. However, more "ventilation" has to happen and quickly.

I'd also point out "holding onto SJFA membership" is not a positive if you're wanting a "full overhaul".

Nah i think we need a full overhaul. We need people with rational heads in charge, not people who will let Partick Thistle’s under 16 B team into the league for a £500 a side bung. In one year the folks in charge at the WOSL have delivered arguably the best and most competitive league. Id say properly expand the LL to 18 and have 4 relegation spots and I’d consider that a fair solution but 1 up from the west is crap. I think they absolutely can demand a fair system. 

[Shannon]

If West Premiership can have 6 or 7 down from 20 for one season no reason Lowland League can't have 6 down and 6 up for a season to sort things out but of course they won't. Even having 3 up and 3 down with automatic promotion for East, West and South league winners would be much better but would still be 7 to 10 years before tier 5 has genuine 16 best teams in the Lowland League area.

[Killiepiyo]

22 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's a guarantee not prize money and only for the semis and final. I think most people would associate the "later rounds" of a competition with 7-8 rounds to take in the last half. Not just the final two.

The work is also being done in trying to create a new national non-league cup. Even the SJFA are trying to change the Junior Cup to accommadate everyone. Using the promise of prize money coming from sponsors that don't currently exist in the hopes they don't resort to burning through their savings to cover the cost.

Appreciate that pal, as I said still work to do. up to the cup themselves to decide what’s affordable but can’t help but feel if it’s true only 1st place gets a grand, probably more spent on the banners advertising the league than that. 
 

I get your point bud, was just thinking there’s a few teams who didn’t retain their membership who would be in for a chance in the later rounds, they would get more prize money from a run in the junior Scottish than they would if they won the league and all the cups (outside of the big Scottish)

Edited November 21, 2021 by Killiepiyo

[Shannon]

Appreciate that pal, as I said still work to do. up to the cup themselves to decide what’s affordable but can’t help but feel if it’s true only 1st place gets a grand, probably more spent on the banners advertising the league than that. 
 
I get your point bud, was just thinking there’s a few teams who didn’t retain their membership who would be in for a chance in the later rounds, they would get more prize money from a run in the junior Scottish than they would if they won the league and all the cups (outside of the big Scottish)

Yeah for all the Junior Cups faults both the prize money is still very decent and that both teams share gate money makes sense. So for West teams with big or even half decent supports you don't get penalised for away cup draws. Also Junior Cup is a well known competition, I was asked a few times yesterday what competition Meadow were playing in yesterday as it's not got well known history and prestige of Scottish Junior Cup and local neutrals and once a year supporters don't come out for it as they do the Junior Cup or Scottish Cup.

With Talbot and Meadow drawing each other potentially in next round big chance for a Conference team or bottom half West Premiership team to get to semi or final and earn before gate money etc £5,000 or £12,000 while I don't think Challenge Cup is near these amounts?

[Blackie Gold]

Was it not the SFA who demanded a pyramid system, maybe them who should be looking into a fair one. The LL is a shambles and I'm still not sure that the ruling for the Old Firm Colts team has been signed off. Last I heard the SFA were holding back due to a boundary change.

[Dev]

If everyone really wants reform then do away with the separate FAs for age groups and within adult football. There would still need to be special attention for the younger ages but all of that could be done directly via the SFA.

I would like to see an All Scotland "non-league" cup competition run by the SFA directly but why would the current Highland league go for that? Without them on-board it wouldn't have the credibility which it would deserve.

The idea of the LL moving up to 18 non-league clubs with two down per season and a play-off between the 3rd bottom LL club and top clubs from Tier 6 would work, and speed things up.

[Burnieman]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Nah i think we need a full overhaul. We need people with rational heads in charge, not people who will let Partick Thistle’s under 16 B team into the league for a £500 a side bung. In one year the folks in charge at the WOSL have delivered arguably the best and most competitive league. Id say properly expand the LL to 18 and have 4 relegation spots and I’d consider that a fair solution but 1 up from the west is crap. I think they absolutely can demand a fair system. 

The WoS didn't really "deliver" anything more than the EoS have done, they chucked together the 20 best teams, which itself was forced upon them due to being unable to deliver Conferences at tier 6, which drew some amount of criticism.

The SFA want 16 team leagues, so as it stands the LL can't go to 18, although that would be a reasonable solution in order to increase "ventilation".

The WoS needs to sort itself out into divisons, as do the EoS, that will happen next season. That in itself will improve what we currently have.

It would also help if the LL vote to allow at least 2 promotion spots from next season. Both the WoS and EoS should be lobbying hard for this, there's more than a few former EoS members in the LL. They can't demand it, however.

[San Starko Rover]

Get yourselves a DeLorean travel back to the beginning of the last decade and tell your chairmen to ignore Tom Johnson and sign up to the Lowland League. The best of the West and East Juniors starting at tier 5 was utterly blown when the member clubs chose to believe lies about gold plated toilets and Tuesday nights in Elgin. You have absolutely no right to jump the teams at tier 5 who are there on merit you’ll have to play through them as Kelty have done.
Your teams being better than theirs and having more fans is completely irrelevant as it’s a pyramid you start at the bottom and earn your way up it (someone tell the Old Firm Colts ) Armadale are down in Tier 7/8 because they missed the boat, should we let them into tier 4 or 5 because they’ve a bigger support? Expecting to jump existing members is utter fantasy you might as well ask for Tier 2 instead of 5 as it’s about as likely to happen. 
Get promotion and relegation opened up so every Champion can be promoted if licensed and we’ll start to see some movement. I look forward to seeing the best of the EOSFL and WOSFL at tier 5 or higher but they have to earn it on the pitch.  Sadly it’s going to take time for the pyramid to even out but this was all caused by a few people who wanted to protect their fiefdom and too many chairmen who couldn’t see what was inevitable.  
 

Edited November 21, 2021 by San Starko Rover

[FairWeatherFan]

52 minutes ago, Shannon said:

With Talbot and Meadow drawing each other potentially in next round big chance for a Conference team or bottom half West Premiership team to get to semi or final and earn before gate money etc £5,000 or £12,000 while I don't think Challenge Cup is near these amounts?
 

The £5,000 and £12,000 payments are gate money. The SJFA only provide that as a guarantee if the split of the respective gates don't cover at least those values. Which with the Semi finals stage going to one tie instead of two might be more likely at that point. Since the gate from a one off semi gets split 3 ways after expenses.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

7 minutes ago, San Starko Rover said:

Get yourselves a DeLorean travel back to the beginning of the last decade and tell your chairmen to ignore Tom Johnson and sign up to the Lowland League. The best of the West and East Juniors starting at tier 5 was utterly blown when the member clubs chose to believe lies about gold plated toilets and Tuesday nights in Elgin. You have absolutely no right to jump the teams at tier 5 who are there on merit you’ll have to play through them as Kelty have done.
Your teams being better than theirs and having more fans is completely irrelevant as it’s a pyramid you start at the bottom and earn your way up it (someone tell the Old Firm Colts ) Armadale are down in Tier 7/8 because they missed the boat, should we let them into tier 4 or 5 because they’ve a bigger support? Expecting to jump existing members is utter fantasy you might as well ask for Tier 2 instead of 5 as it’s about as likely to happen. 
Get promotion and relegation opened up so every Champion can be promoted if licensed and we’ll start to see some movement. I look forward to seeing the best of the EOSFL and WOSFL at tier 5 or higher but they have to earn it on the pitch.  Sadly it’s going to take time for the pyramid to even out but this was all caused by a few people who wanted to protect their fiefdom and too many chairmen who couldn’t see what was inevitable.  
 

Nah, im sorry but to be properly forward thinking we have to just have complete reform, clubs which have avoided relegation because the league ended on a day with a vowel in it and other such nonsense should not be in the fifth tier. Basing your argument on ‘we started things first’ is the absolute reason the SJFA died. Aye the west teams were late to the party but the people in charge there are absolutely nailing the transition to the senior game and have the game absolutely at heart, the clubs, the fans, all considered, surely these are the people who should be leading the way?? 

Also you want to talk about clubs being in the Lowland League on merit? That argument is completely destroyed with the gruesome twosomes under 17’s teams being in the league after paying a bung and promising that they’ll maybe consider bringing 20 fans to away games if youre really good boys. As much as it pains me to say, consider Talbot and Pollok, they’re worth far more to the LL than Rangers walking football under 14’s or whatever they are with the away crowds and actual value they bring.
 

The fact that the LL has sold out the pyramid in the south to everyone’s disadvantage for a few magic beans and a laughable promise that, maybe just maybe someone will want to watch Caledonia Braves french students vs Celtic’s fifteenth choice goalkeeper and a bunch of young players they bought from a Dutch 3rd division team because they are vaguely related to Clarence Seedorf on BBC Alba +1.5hrs is a disgrace and a clear indication that they aren’t fit to lead. 
 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

48 minutes ago, Dev said:

If everyone really wants reform then do away with the separate FAs for age groups and within adult football. There would still need to be special attention for the younger ages but all of that could be done directly via the SFA.

I would like to see an All Scotland "non-league" cup competition run by the SFA directly but why would the current Highland league go for that? Without them on-board it wouldn't have the credibility which it would deserve.

The idea of the LL moving up to 18 non-league clubs with two down per season and a play-off between the 3rd bottom LL club and top clubs from Tier 6 would work, and speed things up.

Agree with you with everything except there should be 4 relegated from an 18 team league imo. 
Lets just go for it, lets make the non league in Scotland far stronger than the spfl, create that product we’ll force reform in the spfl. Clubs in tier 6 are already stronger than most of the league 2 teams and even some in league 1. 
The spfl should reform into 16 team leagues (that won’t happen because for some reason they want as many old firm games as possible, but its for the best) with 3 up and down and have the Lowland and Highland League each promoting its champion with the 3rd bottom spfl club playing off against the winner of both runners up with the game held as a one off at a neutral venue, that, that would be drama, value, imagine packing 6,000 into St Mirren Park for that? Wow. 
Also yes, lets have an all in non league cup, make it HL/LL combined from say round 4 or something, brilliant, have the final in Perth or Dundee or something, what a day out! 
There is so much potential for the pyramid but so long as we always do what we’ve always dont then we’ll always get what we’ve always got.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Nah, im sorry but to be properly forward thinking we have to just have complete reform, clubs which have avoided relegation because the league ended on a day with a vowel in it and other such nonsense should not be in the fifth tier. Basing your argument on ‘we started things first’ is the absolute reason the SJFA died. Aye the west teams were late to the party but the people in charge there are absolutely nailing the transition to the senior game and have the game absolutely at heart, the clubs, the fans, all considered, surely these are the people who should be leading the way??
 

And to think if it hadn't been for the LL the WoSFL wouldn't exist, the West Region SJFA would still running things, and Clydebank would have spent the weekend on Junior Cup duty

There's been a turnover in the LL Board this year directly due to the fallout from the Colts decision. There's going to be a further change in its membership as there's likely be 2 in and 2 out. Which is significant when there's only 16 members.

There's about 6 months before leagues start having AGMs. You aren't going to get wholesale changes in league structures. One the Lowland side you've got 4 league bodies and the SFA involved. If you try and change Tier 5 beyond significantly you're involving the Highland and SPFL.

The Tier 6 leagues applying the pressure for extra promotion spots. Possibly expansion of the LL to 18 are actually attainable goals.

 

[Dev]

You would think that the max number of teams in the HL and LL would have to be the same, whether 16, 18 or whatever. Concerned that the SFA hasn't dealt with that. Didn't the HL even say that they could go to 20 teams if they wished to, or has that changed?

Sadly Bankies made the same errors as virtually everyone-else. They could have jumped ship to the EoS but hung on to the Juniors set-up. They could have been in the LL now surely! Still, need to look forwards not backwards. There's new leadership in the LL and we'll have to see what that brings but an increase to 18 clubs (like the HL already has) seems to be a way forward. Why on earth would the SFA interfere with that?

Looking at the SPFL, in five seasons time, shouldn't that be reduced to full-time Pro clubs with the rest forming a regionalised feeder Tier? Don't know how many SPFL clubs are part-timers but it's not hard to see  two feeder divisions created with HL and LL East and West below that.

[FairWeatherFan]

5 minutes ago, Dev said:

You would think that the max number of teams in the HL and LL would have to be the same, whether 16, 18 or whatever. Concerned that the SFA hasn't dealt with that. Didn't the HL even say that they could go to 20 teams if they wished to, or has that changed?

I think it plays into the discipline side of things for the SFA and staffing refs.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

16 minutes ago, Dev said:

You would think that the max number of teams in the HL and LL would have to be the same, whether 16, 18 or whatever. Concerned that the SFA hasn't dealt with that. Didn't the HL even say that they could go to 20 teams if they wished to, or has that changed?

Sadly Bankies made the same errors as virtually everyone-else. They could have jumped ship to the EoS but hung on to the Juniors set-up. They could have been in the LL now surely! Still, need to look forwards not backwards. There's new leadership in the LL and we'll have to see what that brings but an increase to 18 clubs (like the HL already has) seems to be a way forward. Why on earth would the SFA interfere with that?

Looking at the SPFL, in five seasons time, shouldn't that be reduced to full-time Pro clubs with the rest forming a regionalised feeder Tier? Don't know how many SPFL clubs are part-timers but it's not hard to see  two feeder divisions created with HL and LL East and West below that.

I think youre maybe a tiny bit harsh on our board there, we didnt have the infrastructure in place at holm park due to delays until last year really, yeh we could have maybe gone to somewhere until it was done quicker but competing in the east and doing that would have been difficult.