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Dundee Utd v Aberdeen


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They were saying on sportscene that there is a criminal investigation pending, the absolute state some people get themselves in when at the football.

Wait? You're telling me that shoving someone in the chest is in fact an assault that the Police would indeed take further if required?

Huh. Who'd have thought it?
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12 hours ago, Aim Here said:

There is. Approaching the stands in a manner that would likely cause a security or safety issue is explicitly listed as a cautionable offence in the FIFA laws of the game, and there's no room for discretion - a player must be cautioned in such an instance.

It would be pretty hard to argue that verbally confronting an already aggressive fan *isn't* likely to escalate the situation and, by extension, cause a security problem, especially since the stewards and police DID have to get involved.

The rules make no allowance for the player being more sinned against than sinning, as is the case here - nor should they - it's the job of the police and the stewards to handle fan misbehaviour, and players going out of their way to interact with fans in those situations - even if they're not the instigators of the incident - is only likely to make things worse, hence why the rule is there in the first place.

Is that actually correct? Not being smart just genuinely interested. In terms of the rules of the game I’d understood the mandatory booking for approaching the stands was explicitly tied to post goal scoring activity? I’d assumed the basis for any booking in all other scenarios was the much stricter red for Violent conduct ‘when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against …. a spectator’ or ‘physical or aggressive behaviour (including spitting or biting) towards a… spectator’. IMO Beaton definitely had discretion to take the view neither threshold had been met?

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5 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

To be fair, The Courier is a joke newspaper that panders mainly to Tory farmers and whose articles generally only have a fleeting relevance to the facts. 

4 minutes ago, Melanius Mullarkey said:

Mere shit tickets.

I mention it merely as an example of quite "phenomenal" trolling, I'm almost impressed. 

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I'm fairly sure refs are told to take a common sense approach to things like this.

Madden is an absolute fanny though.

United will come out this horrendously if they do anything expect ban the fan. It shouldn't be hard to identify him.

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Is that actually correct? Not being smart just genuinely interested. In terms of the rules of the game I’d understood the mandatory booking for approaching the stands was explicitly tied to post goal scoring activity? I’d assumed the basis for any booking in all other scenarios was the much stricter red for Violent conduct ‘when a player uses or attempts to use excessive force or brutality against …. a spectator’ or ‘physical or aggressive behaviour (including spitting or biting) towards a… spectator’. IMO Beaton definitely had discretion to take the view neither threshold had been met?

I find it baffling that we are in this twisted place where refs are pushed to robotically apply the letter of the law devoid of discretion or any sense of contextual judgement (any sensible soul would have treated Ojo like Tavernier was treated)

Yet in every single game I watch I see/hear several players swearing at the officials. But it’s ignored despite
“using offensive, insulting or abusive language” being a red card offence. This discretion seems to be broadly accepted.
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I completely disagree with the idea that Madden HAD to give out a card here. It's not a wrong decision, per se, but it's one that he didn't need to make.  There would have been zero consequences for anyone, and nobody would have been the slightest bit bothered if he hadn't. Trotting out lines about aggressive attitudes or approaching supporters completely ignores the actual purpose of a referee, which is to ensure that the game is played out fairly and that justice is seen to be done, not robotically applying a set of laws regardless of the circumstances.

Madden is normally one of the least robotic guys out there too, normally fairly chilled out and happy to have a laugh (for example I remember him running down the touchline sticking the tongue out at our fans when we were giving him stick during a game), so he's one of the guys I'd least expect to have got involved in this manner. My guess is that he has misinterpreted Ojo's involvment in the incident, for example thinking that he'd given a bit back rather than just sort of turning around as if to say "what are you doing pal"?

I would personally like to see the SFA wipe the card in this case, and I hope the fan is banned and charged by the police. We simply cannot have a situation where fans are encouraged to "engage" with players because it might help their team win the game.

Edited by craigkillie
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12 hours ago, Aim Here said:

There is. Approaching the stands in a manner that would likely cause a security or safety issue is explicitly listed as a cautionable offence in the FIFA laws of the game, and there's no room for discretion - a player must be cautioned in such an instance.

It would be pretty hard to argue that verbally confronting an already aggressive fan *isn't* likely to escalate the situation and, by extension, cause a security problem, especially since the stewards and police DID have to get involved.

The rules make no allowance for the player being more sinned against than sinning, as is the case here - nor should they - it's the job of the police and the stewards to handle fan misbehaviour, and players going out of their way to interact with fans in those situations - even if they're not the instigators of the incident - is only likely to make things worse, hence why the rule is there in the first place.

 

Unless I'm missing something, I can't see any such law.

https://www.theifab.com/laws/latest/fouls-and-misconduct/#restart-of-play-after-fouls-and-misconduct

 

Cautionable offences

A player is cautioned if guilty of:

  • delaying the restart of play

  • dissent by word or action

  • entering, re-entering or deliberately leaving the field of play without the referee’s permission

  • failing to respect the required distance when play is restarted with a dropped ball, corner kick, free kick or throw-in

  • persistent offences (no specific number or pattern of offences constitutes 'persistent')

  • unsporting behaviour

  • entering the referee review area (RRA)

  • excessively using the ‘review’ (TV screen) signal

 

There are different circumstances when a player must be cautioned for unsporting behaviour including if a player:

  • attempts to deceive the referee, e.g. by feigning injury or pretending to have been fouled (simulation)

  • changes places with the goalkeeper during play or without the referee’s permission (see Law 3)

  • commits in a reckless manner a direct free kick offence

  • handles the ball to interfere with or stop a promising attack

  • commits any other offence which interferes with or stops a promising attack, except where the referee awards a penalty kick for an offence which was an attempt to play the ball

  • denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring opportunity by an offence which was an attempt to play the ball and the referee awards a penalty kick

  • handles the ball in an attempt to score a goal (whether or not the attempt is successful) or in an unsuccessful attempt to prevent a goal

  • makes unauthorised marks on the field of play

  • plays the ball when leaving the field of play after being given permission to leave

  • shows a lack of respect for the game

  • initiates a deliberate trick for the ball to be passed (including from a free kick or goal kick) to the goalkeeper with the head, chest, knee etc. to circumvent the Law, whether or not the goalkeeper touches the ball with the hands; the goalkeeper is cautioned if responsible for initiating the deliberate trick

  • verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart

Edited by craigkillie
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1 minute ago, craigkillie said:

I completely disagree with the idea that Madden HAD to give out a card here. It's not a wrong decision, per se, but it's one that he didn't need to make.  There would have been zero consequences for anyone, and nobody would have been the slightest bit bothered if he hadn't. Trotting out lines about aggressive attitudes or approaching supporters completely ignores the actual purpose of a referee, which is to ensure that the game is played out fairly and that justice is seen to be done, not robotically applying a set of laws regardless of the circumstances.

Madden is normally one of the least robotic guys out there too, normally fairly chilled out and happy to have a laugh (for example I remember him running down the touchline sticking the tongue out at our fans when we were giving him stick during a game), so he's one of the guys I'd least expect to have got involved in this manner.

The only defence I can think of for madden is that he hasn’t seen ojo get shoved and just him arguing with a fan so has reacted to that. 

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1 minute ago, Dons_1988 said:

The only defence I can think of for madden is that he hasn’t seen ojo get shoved and just him arguing with a fan so has reacted to that. 


I genuinely think that is the most likely scenario. If it was someone like Beaton or Collum I'd put it down to them just being arseholes, but Madden has never really struck me as being like that.

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2 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

I completely disagree with the idea that Madden HAD to give out a card here. It's not a wrong decision, per se, but it's one that he didn't need to make.  There would have been zero consequences for anyone, and nobody would have been the slightest bit bothered if he hadn't. Trotting out lines about aggressive attitudes or approaching supporters completely ignores the actual purpose of a referee, which is to ensure that the game is played out fairly and that justice is seen to be done, not robotically applying a set of laws regardless of the circumstances.

Madden is normally one of the least robotic guys out there too, normally fairly chilled out and happy to have a laugh (for example I remember him running down the touchline sticking the tongue out at our fans when we were giving him stick during a game), so he's one of the guys I'd least expect to have got involved in this manner.

Having watched it, momentum takes Ojo towards the fans and once pushed he looks like he regained his balance, looked at the guy, maybe asked wtf and walked off. It doesn't look like a card offence to me.

The fan is an utter w****r and should be banned. 

 

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3 hours ago, mishtergrolsch said:

Then gets arrested for assault and probably gets way worse a punishment than the total moron that shoves him... How many times do you hear that the reaction is punished more than the initial incident?

In this situation, Ojo reacts to the guy. If you believe that walking back up to a fan and squaring up to him is great restraint then fair enough, its still a yellow card. He could have turned to the referee and complained, he could have done many things but he went back to the fan.


What's the referee going to do, red card the fan?

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2 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

The only defence I can think of for madden is that he hasn’t seen ojo get shoved and just him arguing with a fan so has reacted to that. 

At the game, that's what I saw - Ojo climbing the steps and squaring up to opposition fans. That's clearly a bookable offence. Obviously what precedes it puts those actions in a different context but without having seen the initial push from the bell-end in the crowd it looked like an easy and correct decision.

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10 minutes ago, craigkillie said:


I genuinely think that is the most likely scenario. If it was someone like Beaton or Collum I'd put it down to them just being arseholes, but Madden has never really struck me as being like that.

 

6 minutes ago, Pull My Strings said:

At the game, that's what I saw - Ojo climbing the steps and squaring up to opposition fans. That's clearly a bookable offence. Obviously what precedes it puts those actions in a different context but without having seen the initial push from the bell-end in the crowd it looked like an easy and correct decision.

If it transpires that this is the case I may remove madden from my list of people to be sentenced to death immediately. 

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