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Tier 7 solution for SOS League


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11 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

What nonsense! If (and I fully accept it's unlikely) a south team wins the play-off they will have fully merited their promotion, and will have proven that they are good enough on the only place it matters - on the pitch. Furthermore, if the east and west clubs didn't want the competition (and frankly I think many don't) they shouldn't have entered into a league whose promotion rules are known in advance. Btw, the best team I've seen Uppers play were Tranent, in a cup tie, who have fully earned their recent promotion, I'm sure you'll agree.

How can you say its nonsense, each of the points are explained and you haven't replied why you believe the views are wrong and what you think is better.  Even the reply I give below is what I think of each of your comments in a constructive, disected way so its easy to work out if I'm being honest or full of shit or not, a windup or part of a clique on here.

What nonsense! If (and I fully accept it's unlikely) a south team wins the play-off they will have fully merited their promotion, and will have proven that they are good enough on the only place it matters - on the pitch.

Not one person on here is saying that if an SOSFL champion wins the playoff then they don't deserve to be promoted or be there.
The question is the standard of the SOSFL league is very low and not one team should be at tier 6. I am not stating that the SOSFL at tier 6 is harming the bottleneck or causing it but what I am saying it will make it very difficult as the pyramid has problems, with leagues/teams not at right levels and we should all be striving to make it less difficult.  I.e. not one team from the SOSFL should be even contesting the playoff as the standard is so low, ffs common, who in their right mind thinks any team from that league is of a tier 6 quality
 

Furthermore, if the east and west clubs didn't want the competition (and frankly I think many don't) they shouldn't have entered into a league whose promotion rules are known in advance.

What is going on here, don't you realize people look at the whole pyramid system and see what in their mind are problems and this is one problem that should be sorted for the future to sort the pyramid system. The pyramid is functioning but is slow at certain areas, especially the SPFL2 and the LL. If the lowland open up their relegation, for example  my preference, 2 automatic relegation and 3rd bottom into playoff. The promotion teams, i think, should be both winners of the EOSFL and the WOSFL and the playoff should be both teams who finished in second place from the EOSFL and the WOSFL. There's no way for the forth coming years that a SOSFL team should be contesting this.   Some of the replies from people not just on this post but in general take a lot of things personal because its negative about their team, league or even area.  Mostly people not being objective.   Me personally this post it just so happens its the SOSFL and i certainly have no hatred for the league, i just believe the teams are of a lower standard in what tier 6 should be

 

Btw, the best team I've seen Uppers play were Tranent, in a cup tie, who have fully earned their recent promotion, I'm sure you'll agree.

I was at the game and Tranent won the game hands down and deservedly go into the Lowland league as I've mentioned on the West Forum and the East of Scotland, unsure what's that's got to do with the point of the SOSFL but hey hoe, they deserved to be in the Lowland 100%

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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22 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm more than satisfied that it was a view held by the LL at the time.  Their recent reluctance to expand relegation/promotion beyond one club probably underlines it even more.

If the LL ever goes to 3 up/down by promoting all 3 tier 6 Champs then feel free to come back and pick me up on it, I'd be delighted.

So, in the absence of any corroborating evidence that you are able to provide, basically we simply have to take your word for it.

Not really a reliable basis for anyone to convince others of the validity of the cause you espouse.

BTW - I am not saying that the comments you were provided with were incorrect - it just that views, by what appears to be one person, can be extrapolated to cover the views of all of the LL clubs is tenuous to say the least.

Plus views stated a year ago ?? - who knows how relevant they are now !!

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6 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

I have followed this topic with great interest ( as I do all posts on LL, SOS & WOS).
Basically there is much ado about not very much.
To me there is a lot of folk getting het up about the injustice of where the SOS should be in the grand scheme of the pyramid.

Sorry, cant help myself but reply to your points, wells most of them
Yes agreed right now at this season so far


Right now, the WOS are heading towards an 80 team limit.
Within that number, at what level the SOS is at, really doesn’t matter to the vast majority, since the twain will never meet (except occasionally in a Cup.)
 
So really any bone of contention between the WOS & SOS would only affect the top of the  premier league.
I'm sure there are many WOS people on here or outwit have a bone of contention but there are a lot who look at this objectively with no affiliation to either and want to see what they think is best for and to improve the pyramid system
 
I totally agree that the bottleneck right now is solely with how the LL have dealt with the number of teams for relegation.
Yes agree, but its equally the SPFL2 faults as the Lowland state that they cannot have 2 or 3 relegated when there is, maybe none promoted form the Lowland League

Without question that number should be increased – to what is still for debate.
Personally 2 automatically relegated and the 3rd bottom in a playoff.

I also don’t feel that the SOS would be inflexible or dogmatic in any of those discussions.
I have no views to comment on this as I am not privy to anyone from the SOSFLs views 

I have a question for Burnieman.

I had to reply, sorry

You stated

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6.  
I don't know about conversations that Burnieman has had but I'm fully believe that many would find the SOSFL in tier 6 as problematic in regards to promotion and relegation to and from the Lowland.


Are you claiming that the conversations you have have represent the views of all in the LL ??
Can you clarify just how many clubs were represented in your sample conversations ?

The number of clubs represented is critical since if we take the other highly contentious decision recently about colts, a poll from one side or the other would give a highly skewed view and not representative of the LL at all.
I still believe the colts stuff and hearts is and outside matter of promotion and relegation and is not deemed critical to the promotion/relegation/playoff situations

 

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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6 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

So, in the absence of any corroborating evidence that you are able to provide, basically we simply have to take your word for it.

Not really a reliable basis for anyone to convince others of the validity of the cause you espouse.

BTW - I am not saying that the comments you were provided with were incorrect - it just that views, by what appears to be one person, can be extrapolated to cover the views of all of the LL clubs is tenuous to say the least.

Plus views stated a year ago ?? - who knows how relevant they are now !!

I'm not here to convince anyone, what you or I post on here has no relevance in the real world.  I'm just passing on stuff I've been told and it's upto you what you take from it.

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12 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm not here to convince anyone, what you or I post on here has no relevance in the real world.  I'm just passing on stuff I've been told and it's upto you what you take from it.

 

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There is only one assertion that you have made that I have great difficulty in accepting.

The uncorroborated single view that the SOS is the reason for any movement in increasing the number of relegation places is, in my view, spurious and highly questionable.

You claim that you are not online to convince anyone ?? You have made many valid statements in the past and still claim you are not here to convince anyone ??

I leave others to make their own mind up on how accurate that claim is !!

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With the NCL gaining a place in the SFA Cup for its' Champions, regardless of being licenced, it reminds me that SoS clubs have something else to consider i.e. possibly losing the right of the Champions to enter  the Cup, if unlicenced, if Tier 6 status is lost. 

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10 minutes ago, Dev said:

With the NCL gaining a place in the SFA Cup for its' Champions, regardless of being licenced, it reminds me that SoS clubs have something else to consider i.e. possibly losing the right of the Champions to enter  the Cup, if unlicenced, if Tier 6 status is lost. 

That's a fair point although there's only been one unlicensed club since the Scottish Cup scrapped the qualifying cup in 2007 (plus once when Stranraer reserves won so no club got in).  Of course, the chances will be higher now with Threave leaving.

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7 hours ago, Dev said:

With the NCL gaining a place in the SFA Cup for its' Champions, regardless of being licenced, it reminds me that SoS clubs have something else to consider i.e. possibly losing the right of the Champions to enter  the Cup, if unlicenced, if Tier 6 status is lost. 

That and the continuation in the SFA's JPP. The SFA has tried to minimise their involvement as the pyramid has expanded. Which is why they were happy to have the SJFA oversee leagues in the pyramid. As is the case with the North & Midlands leagues.

 

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12 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

There is only one assertion that you have made that I have great difficulty in accepting.

The uncorroborated single view that the SOS is the reason for any movement in increasing the number of relegation places is, in my view, spurious and highly questionable.

You claim that you are not online to convince anyone ?? You have made many valid statements in the past and still claim you are not here to convince anyone ??

I leave others to make their own mind up on how accurate that claim is !!

That is absolutely not what I said.  If you're going to question my motives (I don't really care if you believe me or not) at least get what I am saying correct.

You list Gretna as your club, let's hear your viewpoint on the whole SoS/tier 6 business, and do you believe the LL will move to 3 pro/rel spots and promote the 3 tier 6 Champs?

Edited by Burnieman
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1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

That is absolutely not what I said.  If you're going to question my motives (I don't really care if you believe me or not) at least get what I am saying correct.

You list Gretna as your club, let's hear your viewpoint on the whole SoS/tier 6 business, and do you believe the LL will move to 3 pro/rel spots and promote the 3 tier 6 Champs?

I do agree - I misquoted you and for that you have my apology.

The critical point I question is the comment  - which you state you kinda agree with

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6. 

Whoever made that comment to you , as you said a year ago, I question whether they could truly reflect the mood of the entire LL clubs. Plus who knows what the mood of all the LL clubs is now, one year on.

Nothing more - and I am certainly not implying anything about your motives in relaying this info.

As to whether the LL will open up relegation places - they certainly should.

As to whether they will move directly to 3 relegation spots - i reckon that is less likely but will eventually.

I don't reckon that whatever level the SOS is at really matters much at all.

I do believe they will be flexible in discussions to establishing a workable promotion system.

Lets be honest here - worst case scenario it will only involve another couple of games in a playoff

 

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14 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

I do agree - I misquoted you and for that you have my apology.

The critical point I question is the comment  - which you state you kinda agree with

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6. 

Whoever made that comment to you , as you said a year ago, I question whether they could truly reflect the mood of the entire LL clubs. Plus who knows what the mood of all the LL clubs is now, one year on.

Nothing more - and I am certainly not implying anything about your motives in relaying this info.

As to whether the LL will open up relegation places - they certainly should.

As to whether they will move directly to 3 relegation spots - i reckon that is less likely but will eventually.

I don't reckon that whatever level the SOS is at really matters much at all.

I do believe they will be flexible in discussions to establishing a workable promotion system.

Lets be honest here - worst case scenario it will only involve another couple of games in a playoff

Fair enough.

I don't agree with anything used as an excuse to suffocate increased promotion to the LL, but I do understand why auto promotion for the SoS Champ (along with WoS and EoS) could create issues, although if it happened tomorrow I'd be delighted.

As for mood, it seems to be set against any increase in promotion, and wasn't there a move to ensure a vote of this nature could only be had every two years?  That doesn't strike me as an organisation willing to move forward.   Unless there is some major shift in attitude, the best we can hope for is 1.5 spots as the next step.

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As an aside, I believe the 4 leagues have met and decided LL relegation destinations for next season, and both Gretna and Dalbeattie were allocated the SoS.  At this point I have no idea if the clubs had an input into this and if not, they have a right to challenge it.

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14 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:
  20 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

I have followed this topic with great interest ( as I do all posts on LL, SOS & WOS).
Basically there is much ado about not very much.
To me there is a lot of folk getting het up about the injustice of where the SOS should be in the grand scheme of the pyramid.

Sorry, cant help myself but reply to your points, wells most of them  l claim the right of reply !
Yes agreed right now at this season so far


Right now, the WOS are heading towards an 80 team limit.
Within that number, at what level the SOS is at, really doesn’t matter to the vast majority, since the twain will never meet (except occasionally in a Cup.)
 
So really any bone of contention between the WOS & SOS would only affect the top of the  premier league.
I'm sure there are many WOS people on here or outwit have a bone of contention but there are a lot who look at this objectively with no affiliation to either and want to see what they think is best for and to improve the pyramid system
 If this was a system starting afresh I would tend to agree with that analysis but what is being proposed is shoehorning leagues to achieve not very much

I totally agree that the bottleneck right now is solely with how the LL have dealt with the number of teams for relegation.
Yes agree, but its equally the SPFL2 faults as the Lowland state that they cannot have 2 or 3 relegated when there is, maybe none promoted form the Lowland League

I believe the two situations of promotion and relegation from the LL could and probably should be dealt with separately

Without question that number should be increased – to what is still for debate.
Personally 2 automatically relegated and the 3rd bottom in a playoff.
Nothing further


I also don’t feel that the SOS would be inflexible or dogmatic in any of those discussions.
I have no views to comment on this as I am not privy to anyone from the SOSFLs views 

I am certainly not privy to them either - just a gut feeling since they have always been flexible in the past.

I have a question for Burnieman.

I had to reply, sorry

You stated

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6.  
I don't know about conversations that Burnieman has had but I'm fully believe that many would find the SOSFL in tier 6 as problematic in regards to promotion and relegation to and from the Lowland.

Who are these many you refer to - and who do they represent ??


Are you claiming that the conversations you have have represent the views of all in the LL ??
Can you clarify just how many clubs were represented in your sample conversations ?

The number of clubs represented is critical since if we take the other highly contentious decision recently about colts, a poll from one side or the other would give a highly skewed view and not representative of the LL at all.
I still believe the colts stuff and hearts is and outside matter of promotion and relegation and is not deemed critical to the promotion/relegation/playoff situations

I do agree that the colts issue is, and should be a separate matter. My point was that the latest views on this matter have varied wildly dependant on timing and at the finish, depending on which side you obtained a view, certainly could not claim to have that view represent all of the LL clubs

 

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Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7? The SFA? The PWG?  maybe the South teams will decide they want to be downgraded?  and what grounds would it be on and would anybody admit to it being placed in the wrong tier in the first place?

Even though i stay in the South West  i maybe get to about half a dozen SOS games in a season, i mainly watch my local LL or now league 1 team, but any time i've been to a game in the  SOS and mentioned the Pyramid to anybody it doesn't seem to be an issue.  The clubs just seem happy to play in there own league against other local teams.  Honestly i think if it was moved down a tier the majority of clubs might think it was injust but would just accept it.  

Personally i think the SOS was placed in a tier to high. As for amalgamating with the WOSFL, NO!  Can't see that being attractive to many of the clubs on competitive terms or travelling. D&G has the highest average population age in Scotland, no major industries, most employment is in the service industries, tourism or farming which involves evening /weekend work, players/club officials cant commit to that .In the last few years the Dumfries  Saturday league and the Stewartry/Wigtownshire Sunday leagues have disappeared-lack of players-rubbish facilities. Unlike the central belt if you shake a tree down here, half a dozen football players don't fall out! There are a lot of good traditional clubs down, with hard working comittees trying there best to improve facilities and playing standards. If it's not broke, why fix it.

The only problem i see needing sorting out with the SOSFL is what to do with the League champion regards play-off, promotion?  Clubs with ambition can always try there luck elsewhere, it will be interesting to see where Threave Rovers are placed in the WOSFL.  

I'm not afiliated to any club, this is just an opinion of a fee paying local fan before my opinions are disected and ripped to shreds.

And i'm watching Glastonbury and i couldn't be bothered using spell checker either.

 

Edited by Sermani
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6 minutes ago, Sermani said:

Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7? The SFA? The PWG?  maybe the South teams will decide they want to be downgraded?  and what grounds would it be on and would anybody admit to it being placed in the wrong tier in the first place?

 

There's an agreement between the LL, WoSFL, SoSFL, EoSFL, and SFA that ties the leagues together. No one has the ability to force the SoSFL into anything. They'll always have a say.

There's going to come a point in the near future where the Lowland vote to increase relegation, which will mean the agreement between all the leagues will have to be amended. Even that won't necessarily mean a change in status for the SoSFL.

There's alsogoing to be a review of Scottish football as a whole brought about by the Colts being accepted into the Lowland once more. So the South will have a say in that. Although I don't expect that to go anywhere.

Threave Rovers are either going into Third Division Conferences or Fourth Division. They find out tomorrow.

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17 hours ago, Sermani said:

Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7? The SFA? The PWG?  maybe the South teams will decide they want to be downgraded?  and what grounds would it be on and would anybody admit to it being placed in the wrong tier in the first place?.

At this moment every league has a say in their association and every association has a say in what happens to them and quite rightly so

Even though i stay in the South West  i maybe get to about half a dozen SOS games in a season, i mainly watch my local LL or now league 1 team, but any time i've been to a game in the  SOS and mentioned the Pyramid to anybody it doesn't seem to be an issue.  The clubs just seem happy to play in there own league against other local teams.  Honestly i think if it was moved down a tier the majority of clubs might think it was injust but would just accept it.  

The SOSFL got into their position first before the WOSFL and no gripe from me regarding this. My main view is that, hopefully in the future the pyramid will be reconstructed to iron out a few problems, stop the bottleneck and make the pyramid run so smooth that everyone is happy and proud to be a part of it.
But i believe changes have to be made and the SOSFL is one, if not it can become an issue as i am concerned that the SOS being at tier 6, should not be there again due to the problems it will cause, mainly that the standard of the SOSFL should not be contesting the playoffs.
If my view became a reality, which from the SPFL2 and the Lowland league there are 2 automatic relegation and the 3rd bottom go into a play off.
the problem I see, if , hypothetically, EOSFL and WOSFL champions were promoted, and that the 3rd bottom LL would play the SOSFL, would be wrong
I was however thinking of  a compromise with myself loll,  3rd bottom would play in a round robin against the SOSFL winners and the two 2nd Placed teams of the EOSFL and the WOSFL, that way the SOSFL could not be held accountable for any bottleneck now or in the future.

Regarding most people in the SOS don't have an issue with the pyramid but what you'll find is there's a lot of people in the South, North, West, East don't know how the pyramid works and not really interested in it unless its about their own team

Personally i think the SOS was placed in a tier to high. As for amalgamating with the WOSFL, NO!  Can't see that being attractive to many of the clubs on competitive terms or travelling. D&G has the highest average population age in Scotland, no major industries, most employment is in the service industries, tourism or farming which involves evening /weekend work, players/club officials cant commit to that .In the last few years the Dumfries  Saturday league and the Stewartry/Wigtownshire Sunday leagues have disappeared-lack of players-rubbish facilities. Unlike the central belt if you shake a tree down here, half a dozen football players don't fall out! There are a lot of good traditional clubs down, with hard working comittees trying there best to improve facilities and playing standards. If it's not broke, why fix it.

The SOSFL was placed in the right tier at the time of inception but I feel the level of all the teams are not a tier 6 level.
Amalgamating with the WOSFL, i cant see any other way.
The rest of your paragraph i agree 110%

The only problem i see needing sorting out with the SOSFL is what to do with the League champion regards play-off, promotion?  Clubs with ambition can always try there luck elsewhere, it will be interesting to see where Threave Rovers are placed in the WOSFL.  
Right now, I believe if a club in the SOSFL had ambition, they would stay in the SOSFL as they only need one season to get to the playoffs

I'm not afiliated to any club, this is just an opinion of a fee paying local fan before my opinions are disected and ripped to shreds.
I think your post was great, thats why I liked it and I just added a bit more detail to my views

And i'm watching Glastonbury and i couldn't be bothered using spell checker either.

 

 

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On 23/06/2022 at 22:51, Bestsinceslicebread said:

How can you say its nonsense, each of the points are explained and you haven't replied why you believe the views are wrong and what you think is better.  Even the reply I give below is what I think of each of your comments in a constructive, disected way so its easy to work out if I'm being honest or full of shit or not, a windup or part of a clique on here.

What nonsense! If (and I fully accept it's unlikely) a south team wins the play-off they will have fully merited their promotion, and will have proven that they are good enough on the only place it matters - on the pitch.

Not one person on here is saying that if an SOSFL champion wins the playoff then they don't deserve to be promoted or be there.
The question is the standard of the SOSFL league is very low and not one team should be at tier 6. I am not stating that the SOSFL at tier 6 is harming the bottleneck or causing it but what I am saying it will make it very difficult as the pyramid has problems, with leagues/teams not at right levels and we should all be striving to make it less difficult.  I.e. not one team from the SOSFL should be even contesting the playoff as the standard is so low, ffs common, who in their right mind thinks any team from that league is of a tier 6 quality
 

Furthermore, if the east and west clubs didn't want the competition (and frankly I think many don't) they shouldn't have entered into a league whose promotion rules are known in advance.

What is going on here, don't you realize people look at the whole pyramid system and see what in their mind are problems and this is one problem that should be sorted for the future to sort the pyramid system. The pyramid is functioning but is slow at certain areas, especially the SPFL2 and the LL. If the lowland open up their relegation, for example  my preference, 2 automatic relegation and 3rd bottom into playoff. The promotion teams, i think, should be both winners of the EOSFL and the WOSFL and the playoff should be both teams who finished in second place from the EOSFL and the WOSFL. There's no way for the forth coming years that a SOSFL team should be contesting this.   Some of the replies from people not just on this post but in general take a lot of things personal because its negative about their team, league or even area.  Mostly people not being objective.   Me personally this post it just so happens its the SOSFL and i certainly have no hatred for the league, i just believe the teams are of a lower standard in what tier 6 should be

 

Btw, the best team I've seen Uppers play were Tranent, in a cup tie, who have fully earned their recent promotion, I'm sure you'll agree.

I was at the game and Tranent won the game hands down and deservedly go into the Lowland league as I've mentioned on the West Forum and the East of Scotland, unsure what's that's got to do with the point of the SOSFL but hey hoe, they deserved to be in the Lowland 100%

My mention of Tranent being a good team who have proven their abilities on the pitch is to support my point that this is the only way the relative strengths of football clubs can be conclusively demonstrated. Your belief that the SOS is inferior, just because, is both hilarious and preternaturally unconstructive. 

Edited by Bad Wolf
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On 23/06/2022 at 21:06, Burnieman said:

I don't think there is anyone actively seeking to change it within the game (that might change at this upcoming PWG meeting), change will probably come from the SoS itself and I think they realise continuation at tier 6 long term probably isn't in their best interests, particularly when one of their historically stronger clubs and SFA members resigns and goes to the WoS.

All we're doing here is kicking the idea around on an internet forum.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you were trying to do this. I'm pretty sure that some are though, and on grounds that I find objectionable. Specifically west central belt blazer politics, which informs their (tbf entirely genuinely held) belief that their barren, desolate shitholes that have been economic disaster areas for half a century are better than everyone else's barren, desolate shitholes that have been economic disaster areas for half a century. Given that, as my football team suggests, I grew up in Ayrshire, and also given that I left Ayrshire as soon as I could, never to return, I don't find these politics to my taste; and feel they are detrimental to the growth and well being of our country's most popular sport. Which may not matter quite as much as wider political issues, but is important nonetheless.

Edited by Bad Wolf
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51 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

My mention of Tranent being a good team who have proven their abilities on the pitch is to support my point that this is the only way the relative strengths of football clubs can be conclusively demonstrated. Your belief that the SOS is inferior, just because, is both hilarious and preternaturally unconstructive. 

Well that's not true. I'm sorry, go back to my posts, I have been to games and watched online/streamed in the WOSFL the SOSFL and the EOSFL and Lowland and a lot more involved to make a comment on why I think it the league is inferior as I've viewed games across the board. Your Hilarious comment is total ignorant to what I've put on my posts in this thread as I've put my views on in a full constructive way and by point including the ones I've listed here and your Unconstructive comments are ludicrious.   If you are taken it personally cause you think its an attack on the SOSFL then I cant help that.  I cant think of many people who are in support that think that the SOSFL is a tier 6 standard.  The Tranent game you talk about was a cup tie, no way can you say that its any major relevance to the standard of level of leagues.  The main playoff between the EOSFL, SOSFL and the WOSFL yeah you can say there is some, as its the most important for those teams involved for the whole season, well supposed to be.

and again your comment, 'just because'. its not just because as i have given my full reason why its MY view point and I don't speak for anyone else on here

So i build my views from my own experience, of playing and now watching, working, volunteering, coaching in and about those levels and yes what other people have said, peoples who I value their comments as I know they are objective and a few on here but mainly outside of the forum

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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