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Tier 7 solution for SOS League


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13 minutes ago, stanley said:

Yes, it's fucking moronic to think that a pyramid generally covers a large population in the higher divisions and gets more local as you go down.

We already have this in place champ - they're called tiers 1-4, then there's two effective national conference leagues and finally a stack of regional leagues below. 

But yes, a sprawling metropolis like Auchinleck or Darvel is certainly destined to play at a higher level through sheer size of locality alone. 

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50 minutes ago, virginton said:

We already have this in place champ - they're called tiers 1-4, then there's two effective national conference leagues and finally a stack of regional leagues below. 

But yes, a sprawling metropolis like Auchinleck or Darvel is certainly destined to play at a higher level through sheer size of locality alone. 

I can't even follow what exactly your point is with regard to the SoS at tier 5, you've picked an odd hill to die on.

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2 hours ago, virginton said:

Within a reasonable period of time it will be such giants of the game like Beith and Tynecastle playing in these play-offs and there's absolutely no reason why a South league couldn't compete at that level. 

There's probably 12-15 years worth of play-offs (if things remain the same, which they wont) before we get to the stage of an SoS team being competitive in a LL PO, and that's ignoring the fact that by then some pretty decent teams will drop out of the LL in the intervening period as the current weak teams are quickly flushed out over the next 5-6 years. I'd wager you wouldn't see an SoS team win a 3-way play off in 20 years unless someone did a Gretna with money.

As has been pointed out, Gretna 2008 and Dalbeattie will likely ask for demotion to the EoS/WoS when the time comes, they're toast if they end up in the SoS, there's no future in it for them, but they could be competitive in a Premier of either EoS/WoS.

Threave Rovers could well lead to SCW and Newton Stewart following their lead, neither will ever get to (or want to get to) the LL, and they may want more of what the other two leagues offer than the SoS which is now down to 12 clubs inc two reserve teams.

Bottom line is, the SoS needs to protect it's long term future by voluntarily seeking a solution, otherwise it could shed clubs to the point where it's unviable.

Edited by Burnieman
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3 hours ago, stanley said:

St. Cuthbert Wanderers did not lose 7-0 to a WoS side but they did to an EoS side who play at the same level of the pyramid. Your argument seems to be that them losing 3-1 at home to Darvel shows that there's not a big gap between the SoS and WoS. 

I've shown you the South Challenge Cup results from last season. Not one of the sides was able to beat a WoS side other than St Cuthbert Wanderers (who beat Bonnyton who had recently played in the SoS and were only in the Premier because they'd moved from the SoS - their points tally shows that they are nowhere near a WoS Premier level). Many of them lost to a WoS side which finished very low in the conferences and will be in the fourth tier of WoS football next season. When playing anyone above fourth tier level, they got absolutely hammered (other than St. Cuthbert/Threave).

St. Cuthbert Wanderers, last season, finished first and were clearly miles better than most of the SoS sides. They don't always win the league and last season seems to have been a very good one. Despite that, they still lost to Darvel and were hammered by Tranent. They lost 3-1 to Gala Fairydean in the Scottish Cup and 3-2 to Linlithgow in the South Challenge Cup. These represent excellent results for an SoS side but also back up the point that even the best SoS side would struggle in the WoS or Lowland League.

Threave have consistently been one of the better SoS teams and have chosen to leave the league, further weakening it. This also clearly shows Threave do not have Lowland League ambitions and I'd be hugely surprised if any SoS side is aiming for the Lowland League.

As burnieman said, there's no chance that you'd put a D & G league at tier 6 if you were to start the pyramid from scratch. We need to move away from these historical quirks and have a properly functioning pyramid. Too many things in Scottish football are done because it's the way things have always been done.

The WoS and EoS cover populations of around 2 million people each and the Premier divisions sit at tier 6. D & G covers 150k people and sits alongside them. The SoS will never be able to compete with those leagues.

Part of a properly functioning pyramid for me is that the whole of the country should be represented, not just the parts that some people inexplicably consider to be more important than others. Without idling away hours on Wikipedia, as I have done in the past, I'd take a rough guess that there are 150 clubs in the central belt, and 10 down here in southern teuchterland. Which proportionally in population terms isn't that much of a disparity. I see no economic reason why Upper Annandale (my local SoS teuchters) can't compete with Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc; or for that matter Ormiston and Pumpherston. No-one is suggesting that they can compete with Pollok, Kilwinning or Linlithgow. It's up to the latter group of clubs to demonstrate that where it matters, on the pitch. Which they now can do as the association they are part of eventually chose to engage with the rest of Scottish football. The delay is no-one's fault but their own. 

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13 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Part of a properly functioning pyramid for me is that the whole of the country should be represented, not just the parts that some people inexplicably consider to be more important than others. Without idling away hours on Wikipedia, as I have done in the past, I'd take a rough guess that there are 150 clubs in the central belt, and 10 down here in southern teuchterland. Which proportionally in population terms isn't that much of a disparity. I see no economic reason why Upper Annandale (my local SoS teuchters) can't compete with Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc; or for that matter Ormiston and Pumpherston. No-one is suggesting that they can compete with Pollok, Kilwinning or Linlithgow. It's up to the latter group of clubs to demonstrate that where it matters, on the pitch. Which they now can do as the association they are part of eventually chose to engage with the rest of Scottish football. The delay is no-one's fault but their own. 

Of course, who doesn't want the whole country to be represented? Which parts are being considered more important than others? This would be about the SoS being linked to the west region or further down the system, not about it being removed from the pyramid. If we're going to have small regions at tier 6 then why wouldn't you have a borders league there too rather than at amateur level?

Edited by stanley
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4 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Part of a properly functioning pyramid for me is that the whole of the country should be represented, not just the parts that some people inexplicably consider to be more important than others.

Don't think anyone would disagree with that. However the pyramid isn't just a randomly selected tier. As seen by multiple reconstruction proposals at SPFL level that would render our current understanding of T5 or T6 to be utterly meaningless.

Feeding into the West (a smaller geographic footprint than all of the Lowlands) and a more diverse group of clubs makes more sense than being a feeder to the Lowland League.

 

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23 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Part of a properly functioning pyramid for me is that the whole of the country should be represented, not just the parts that some people inexplicably consider to be more important than others. Without idling away hours on Wikipedia, as I have done in the past, I'd take a rough guess that there are 150 clubs in the central belt, and 10 down here in southern teuchterland. Which proportionally in population terms isn't that much of a disparity. I see no economic reason why Upper Annandale (my local SoS teuchters) can't compete with Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc; or for that matter Ormiston and Pumpherston. No-one is suggesting that they can compete with Pollok, Kilwinning or Linlithgow. It's up to the latter group of clubs to demonstrate that where it matters, on the pitch. Which they now can do as the association they are part of eventually chose to engage with the rest of Scottish football. The delay is no-one's fault but their own. 

The point is of course that Ormiston, Pumpherston, Lugar, Maybole etc aren't sitting in a league at tier 6 with direct entry to a LL PO.

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If the primary point of the pyramid is to integrate football clubs from all over Scotland into it then the SoSFL should not move. 

There are clubs in D&G who can't afford the time and money required to travel all across Strathclyde. If they are put into, I dunno, tier 8 in a regionalised tier next to WoSFl leagues it will kill off SoSFL clubs. 

As an example: if in four years time, for instance, St Cuthberts do win the play off they are getting promoted into the LL. Where they will play clubs like Pollok, Stenhousemuir, Linlithgow, etc. These clubs will bring away fans, there will be prestige and the club will be better known, it's in a bigger league with more sponsorship. in short, finances will increase with the promotion to make it a financially viable step for them despite the greater difficulties.

If, however, they are 'promoted' into a league at tier 7 featuring Vale of Leven, Campbeltown and Rossvale there is no prestige, no sponsorship opportunities, further travel. It won't be worth their time being promoted. 

I do see the primary point of the pyramid as making the pyramid a fully  national endeavour. The SoSFL in their position, even if artificially high, is the best thing to keep football in D&G going and, even then, it's struggling. Weakening it further would kill it.

It does absolutely no harm to any other tier six club or league to have them there but to shift them is harmful. There's no real justification for demoting them just because some Broxburn or Johnstone fans think their club is too good to be at the same tier as Creetown. 

At the end of the season the clubs get a chance to play off. If the SoSFL team loses each year so what? 

And, as pointed out, most of the teams that are gonna come down over the next half a dozen years will both improve the quality of the SoSFL and weaken the EoSFL/WoSFL so this might all be arbitrary by then when Dalbeattie Star are beating Rutherglen Glencairn or St. Andrew's in the play offs.

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5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

If the primary point of the pyramid is to integrate football clubs from all over Scotland into it then the SoSFL should not move. 

There are clubs in D&G who can't afford the time and money required to travel all across Strathclyde. If they are put into, I dunno, tier 8 in a regionalised tier next to WoSFl leagues it will kill off SoSFL clubs

As an example: if in four years time, for instance, St Cuthberts do win the play off they are getting promoted into the LL. Where they will play clubs like Pollok, Stenhousemuir, Linlithgow, etc. These clubs will bring away fans, there will be prestige and the club will be better known, it's in a bigger league with more sponsorship. in short, finances will increase with the promotion to make it a financially viable step for them despite the greater difficulties.

If, however, they are 'promoted' into a league at tier 7 featuring Vale of Leven, Campbeltown and Rossvale there is no prestige, no sponsorship opportunities, further travel. It won't be worth their time being promoted. 

I do see the primary point of the pyramid as making the pyramid a fully  national endeavour. The SoSFL in their position, even if artificially high, is the best thing to keep football in D&G going and, even then, it's struggling. Weakening it further would kill it.

It does absolutely no harm to any other tier six club or league to have them there but to shift them is harmful. There's no real justification for demoting them just because some Broxburn or Johnstone fans think their club is too good to be at the same tier as Creetown. 

At the end of the season the clubs get a chance to play off. If the SoSFL team loses each year so what? 

And, as pointed out, most of the teams that are gonna come down over the next half a dozen years will both improve the quality of the SoSFL and weaken the EoSFL/WoSFL so this might all be arbitrary by then when Dalbeattie Star are beating Rutherglen Glencairn or St. Andrew's in the play offs.

A few points I disagree with to be fair

Is everyone in agreement that the SOSFL is a lower level of the type of standard of teams than the EOSFL and the WOSFL in both premier leagues ?
If this is true then the SOSFL should not be at tier 6, it should be down one level at least, (or should it be lower down), even along side the WOSFL tier 7, how to adopt promotion from two tier 7s then that's up to the most skillful to work out.

Every team should reach the level that they are at and with the SOSFL staying at tier 6, too many low standard teams are at a level they should not be at.
The consequences of change have valid points good and bad, which has been noted above but if the winner of the SOSFL if at tier 7 doesn't need to be promoted if they think it would be detrimental to their existence with travelling.
We all want the pyramid to work and there's problems with the SPFL2 and the LL that needs to be addressed which at the moment are leaving bottle necks below them.  I think they will be eventually sorted but only time will tell but I do think to make it easier EOSFL and WOSFL should be the only two fighting for the promotionf. 

So if the Lowland had two relegated, the automatics promotion teams would be the winners of Both the EOSFL and the WOSFL premier leagues, leaving the 2nd placed WOSFL and EOSFL teams playoff  with the 3rd bottom of the LL.  The SOSFL doesn't merit being at this level, (as in standard wise) or put simply, just simply as they are not good enough.

The pyramid needs to be brought in line to be a smooth functioning machine that everyoen sees potential of reaching their level of beyond but knowing their at a level where they can complete.   Both the EOSFL and the WOSFL are nearly sorted with most teams at the level or division they should be and now everyone knows where they stand and what is required if they ant to progress up divisions.
 

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13 hours ago, stanley said:

Of course, who doesn't want the whole country to be represented? Which parts are being considered more important than others? This would be about the SoS being linked to the west region or further down the system, not about it being removed from the pyramid. If we're going to have small regions at tier 6 then why wouldn't you have a borders league there too rather than at amateur level?

 

The points repeatedly made by vikinton and Bad Wolf are perfectly valid, if inconvenient for a few of the more vociferous supporters (of ex Juniors clubs) who still haven't adjusted to life in the real competitive world of the pyramid.

The selfish approach of SPFL2 and LL clubs to automatic promotion/relegation hasn't helped but sadly fits in with the attitudes expressed by some supporters at even lower levels of the game e.g. as witnessed by threads such as this.

When it comes to selfish approaches to the running of the game in the pyramid neither the WoS nor the EoS have clean pairs of hands.

Just consider the preference of the WoS to taking in any SoS club from Dumfries and Galloway when that club will be blocking access to the WoS for further progressive amateur and youth based clubs from Clydeside or Ayrshire etc.

In the East there is the recent determined holding back of competitive ex East Region Juniors clubs. This is a short sighted policy because it prolongs the sorting out of the member clubs into balanced Divisions and the lowest Division into a more geographically balanced Division. 

Some East clubs have invested heavily since making the transition to Senior football and are scared of losing a place in the Premier Division. They don't like the idea that a pyramid is about merit on the pitch over a season and not about political game play in order to stay up when they should go down to a more appropriate level. If there's a net gain of one or two clubs from the LL then maintain the Premier Division at 16 clubs by means of relegating one or two additional clubs. They will soon bounce back if they are good enough. Similarly relegate clubs where Divisions exceed 16 in number and if one or two more have to go down then so be it but don't be gutless and self-seeking about it.

In other words some Central Belters should take stock and moan about things which need sorting out in their own areas before taking collective cheap shots at others, this time the SoS.

Edited by Dev
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7 hours ago, Ray Patterson said:

Amazed there hasn't been more discussion of districtisation at T7/8/9 given the increased transport costs. 

 

The trend of the last decade in the pyramid leagues has been for larger divisions with a proper fixture list for the season. The old East Region going to 16 team Super/Premier with evenly split North/South. The North Region trying West/East lower divisions but moving back to a 1st/2nd and now having just Premier/Championship. The West Region going to Premier-Championship-L1-L2 which has become potentially Premier-First-Second-Third-Fourth in the WoSFL.

15 guaranteed home games. Intended to be spread across the season (postponements & cup runs impacting) has outweighed the negatives of increased travel. There tends to be a reasonable mix of local to long distance that the away trips aren't exactly 15 marathon trips. It has also meant that the divisions are more evenly balanced on the field and has allowes for streamlining promotion/relegation. Instead of being stuck in a division with 1.5 chance of promotion there's often 3 promotion places.

 

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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8 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

If the primary point of the pyramid is to integrate football clubs from all over Scotland into it then the SoSFL should not move. 

There are clubs in D&G who can't afford the time and money required to travel all across Strathclyde. If they are put into, I dunno, tier 8 in a regionalised tier next to WoSFl leagues it will kill off SoSFL clubs. 

As an example: if in four years time, for instance, St Cuthberts do win the play off they are getting promoted into the LL. Where they will play clubs like Pollok, Stenhousemuir, Linlithgow, etc. These clubs will bring away fans, there will be prestige and the club will be better known, it's in a bigger league with more sponsorship. in short, finances will increase with the promotion to make it a financially viable step for them despite the greater difficulties.

If, however, they are 'promoted' into a league at tier 7 featuring Vale of Leven, Campbeltown and Rossvale there is no prestige, no sponsorship opportunities, further travel. It won't be worth their time being promoted. 

I do see the primary point of the pyramid as making the pyramid a fully  national endeavour. The SoSFL in their position, even if artificially high, is the best thing to keep football in D&G going and, even then, it's struggling. Weakening it further would kill it.

It does absolutely no harm to any other tier six club or league to have them there but to shift them is harmful. There's no real justification for demoting them just because some Broxburn or Johnstone fans think their club is too good to be at the same tier as Creetown. 

At the end of the season the clubs get a chance to play off. If the SoSFL team loses each year so what? 

And, as pointed out, most of the teams that are gonna come down over the next half a dozen years will both improve the quality of the SoSFL and weaken the EoSFL/WoSFL so this might all be arbitrary by then when Dalbeattie Star are beating Rutherglen Glencairn or St. Andrew's in the play offs.

I get the point. Except for Tier 7 clubs you're including Tier 9-10 clubs.

And in order for Rutherglen & St Andrews to be the best of the West/East. Just need 32+ clubs to be promoted and the 32+ clubs relegated of a lower standard than Rutherglen & St Andrews. 

Edited by FairWeatherFan
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11 hours ago, Burnieman said:

The point is of course that Ormiston, Pumpherston, Lugar, Maybole etc aren't sitting in a league at tier 6 with direct entry to a LL PO.

'Direct entry' is doing a lot of heavy, forced lifting in that complaint - when in reality they just get a play-off. If they're not good enough, then the West or East candidates will surely prevail - which would still be the case in the unlikely event that the LL voluntarily opens up a second relegation/promotion spot in the future. 

In sum then, the call here is to either demote or dismantle an existing regional league, to 'solve' a problem that does not exist. 

Edited by vikingTON
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7 minutes ago, virginton said:

'Direcr entry' is doing a lot of heavy, forced lifting in that complaint - when in reality they just get a play-off. If they're not good enough, then the West or East candidates will surely prevail - which would still be the case in the unlikely event that the LL voluntarily opens up a second relegation/promotion spot in the future

In sum then, the call here is to either demote or dismantle an existing regional league, to 'solve' a problem that does not exist. 


The vote for this was 9-7 this year and it seems likely that new entrants are going to be more favourable to this than the relegated losers they replace, so I can see this being the case within the next couple of years.

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40 minutes ago, virginton said:

'Direct entry' is doing a lot of heavy, forced lifting in that complaint - when in reality they just get a play-off. If they're not good enough, then the West or East candidates will surely prevail - which would still be the case in the unlikely event that the LL voluntarily opens up a second relegation/promotion spot in the future. 

In sum then, the call here is to either demote or dismantle an existing regional league, to 'solve' a problem that does not exist. 

Which part of "direct entry to a LL PO" didn't you understand?

The problem you have is that SoS members are now leaving, and will probably continue to leave, in search of a better environment to play the game, without a second thought to the LL. A problem most certainly exists.

As I said previously, nobody sets-up tier 6 with the SoS in there if you're starting from scratch because it's totally bonkers, therefore, there is good reason to work towards placing the league and it's members (most of whom do not want promotion to the LL, or are in fact ineligible) at an appropriate level.

Edited by Burnieman
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8 hours ago, Dev said:

 

The points repeatedly made by virginton and Bad Wolf are perfectly valid, if inconvenient for a few of the more vociferous supporters (of ex Juniors clubs) who still haven't adjusted to life in the real competitive world of the pyramid.

The selfish approach of SPFL2 and LL clubs to automatic promotion/relegation hasn't helped but sadly fits in with the attitudes expressed by some supporters at even lower levels of the game e.g. as witnessed by threads such as this.

When it comes to selfish approaches to the running of the game in the pyramid neither the WoS nor the EoS have clean pairs of hands.

Just consider the preference of the WoS to taking in any SoS club from Dumfries and Galloway when that club will be blocking access to the WoS for further progressive amateur and youth based clubs from Clydeside or Ayrshire etc.

In the East there is the recent determined holding back of competitive ex East Region Juniors clubs. This is a short sighted policy because it prolongs the sorting out of the member clubs into balanced Divisions and the lowest Division into a more geographically balanced Division. 

Some East clubs have invested heavily since making the transition to Senior football and are scared of losing a place in the Premier Division. They don't like the idea that a pyramid is about merit on the pitch over a season and not about political game play in order to stay up when they should go down to a more appropriate level. If there's a net gain of one or two clubs from the LL then maintain the Premier Division at 16 clubs by means of relegating one or two additional clubs. They will soon bounce back if they are good enough. Similarly relegate clubs where Divisions exceed 16 in number and if one or two more have to go down then so be it but don't be gutless and self-seeking about it.

In other words some Central Belters should take stock and moan about things which need sorting out in their own areas before taking collective cheap shots at others, this time the SoS.

Complete bollocks 🤣

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9 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

If the primary point of the pyramid is to integrate football clubs from all over Scotland into it then the SoSFL should not move. 

There are clubs in D&G who can't afford the time and money required to travel all across Strathclyde. If they are put into, I dunno, tier 8 in a regionalised tier next to WoSFl leagues it will kill off SoSFL clubs. 

As an example: if in four years time, for instance, St Cuthberts do win the play off they are getting promoted into the LL. Where they will play clubs like Pollok, Stenhousemuir, Linlithgow, etc. These clubs will bring away fans, there will be prestige and the club will be better known, it's in a bigger league with more sponsorship. in short, finances will increase with the promotion to make it a financially viable step for them despite the greater difficulties.

If, however, they are 'promoted' into a league at tier 7 featuring Vale of Leven, Campbeltown and Rossvale there is no prestige, no sponsorship opportunities, further travel. It won't be worth their time being promoted. 

I do see the primary point of the pyramid as making the pyramid a fully  national endeavour. The SoSFL in their position, even if artificially high, is the best thing to keep football in D&G going and, even then, it's struggling. Weakening it further would kill it.

It does absolutely no harm to any other tier six club or league to have them there but to shift them is harmful. There's no real justification for demoting them just because some Broxburn or Johnstone fans think their club is too good to be at the same tier as Creetown. 

At the end of the season the clubs get a chance to play off. If the SoSFL team loses each year so what? 

And, as pointed out, most of the teams that are gonna come down over the next half a dozen years will both improve the quality of the SoSFL and weaken the EoSFL/WoSFL so this might all be arbitrary by then when Dalbeattie Star are beating Rutherglen Glencairn or St. Andrew's in the play offs.

Do you think the SoS should be kept at an artificially high level, complicating the LL promotion issue (even holding it back), in order to keep a handful of amateur clubs going in D&G?  Why have Threave Rovers moved and given away their LL chance probably forever, and why can't any of the other clubs follow their lead?

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9 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Is everyone in agreement that the SOSFL is a lower level of the type of standard of teams than the EOSFL and the WOSFL in both premier leagues ?
If this is true then the SOSFL should not be at tier 6, it should be down one level at least

We are already at the point where the LL winners are of a higher standard than the HL winners. So, using this argument, why should they be at the same level?

If we go by previous encounters in cup competitions it's not beyond the pale to see the WoSFL Prem is of a better quality than the EoSFL Prem. So let's push them down a tier?

The Midlands, North Region and North Caley aren't anywhere near the level of the WoSFL either. Punt them down a tier?

Your other argument that, maybe, D&G clubs, pushed down a tier, could be allowed to decline promotion? Makes no sense. Clubs with ambition in that league would need to go through a league, detrimental to their own finances, in order to go further in the pyramid or decide to stay where they are. It just creates a glass ceiling.

The only argument I'm hearing about why the SoSFL should be papped down is "but they're not as good". Well, sorry folks, this is how regional leagues in pyramids work all over the world. Some have a higher quality than others at the same tier and the quality between the leagues can wax and wane. 

WoSFL has only, just, managed to finish its first season ever and now their fans want to demote the SoSFL already. Even tho', by their own admission, their own Premier League is, currently, unfairly weighted due to the bottleneck in promotion places.

Perhaps giving the pyramid time, through promotion and relegation, to come to a more naturally weighted quality would allow us a chance to give a fairer comparison of the strength of the leagues.

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3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Do you think the SoS should be kept at an artificially high level, complicating the LL promotion issue (even holding it back), in order to keep a handful of amateur clubs going in D&G?  Why have Threave Rovers moved and given away their LL chance probably forever, and why can't any of the other clubs follow their lead?

I don't think it's  "artificially" high. It's in the position it's always been in. I think the strength of the other two leagues are artificially low. And only once some of the clubs in those leagues who should be playing at a higher level reach it can we give a full assessment of the quality of the SoSFL. I also don't think it complicates the promotion issue. There's one place. The three teams play off. Simple. 

And I don't know why Threave have moved. You'd need to ask Threave. What is good for one club may not be necessarily good for another. So you'd need to ask them as well. However Threave are in a fairly risk free position. If they think they've made a mistake and return to the SoSFL they'll be back in at tier 6. If Kello, for instance, tried the other way round they'd have to come back in at tier 9 with the amateurs and boys clubs.

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