Tier 7 solution for SOS League

[rockson]

2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Well that's not true. I'm sorry, go back to my posts, I have been to games and watched online/streamed in the WOSFL the SOSFL and the EOSFL and Lowland and a lot more involved to make a comment on why I think it the league is inferior as I've viewed games across the board. Your Hilarious comment is total ignorant to what I've put on my posts in this thread as I've put my views on in a full constructive way and by point including the ones I've listed here and your Unconstructive comments are ludicrious.   If you are taken it personally cause you think its an attack on the SOSFL then I cant help that.  I cant think of many people who are in support that think that the SOSFL is a tier 6 standard.  The Tranent game you talk about was a cup tie, no way can you say that its any major relevance to the standard of level of leagues.  The main playoff between the EOSFL, SOSFL and the WOSFL yeah you can say there is some, as its the most important for those teams involved for the whole season, well supposed to be.

and again your comment, 'just because'. its not just because as i have given my full reason why its MY view point and I don't speak for anyone else on here

So i build my views from my own experience, of playing and now watching, working, volunteering, coaching in and about those levels and yes what other people have said, peoples who I value their comments as I know they are objective and a few on here but mainly outside of the forum

You are of the opinion that the standard of the SoSFL is lower than  other leagues at Tier 6. That may well be true but it is of no relevance in the wider world where the only thing that matters is the result of the three-way W/E/S oSFL play-off at the end of the season. If the LL ever increases its number of relegation spots that play-off - or whatever replaces it - will still be the only thing that matters. No WoSl or EoSL team is in any way disdvantaged by the SoSL at Tier 6. To gain promotion they have to win their leagues and then the play-offs. If they can't do that then they don't deserve promotion.

Similarly the NCL in the North is probably of a lower overall standard than the former Junior leagues in the north now also at Tier 6 but there is no clamour for the NCL's Tier 6 status to be taken away. As in the south licenced teams in the north winning their league have a play-off chance to gain promotion.

 

[FairWeatherFan]

3 minutes ago, rockson said:

No WoSl or EoSL team is in any way disdvantaged by the SoSL at Tier 6. To gain promotion they have to win their leagues and then the play-offs. If they can't do that then they don't deserve promotion.

 

The Playoff isn't fixed it changes depending on the number of entrants.

With Threave Rovers moved on, St Cuthbert Wanderers going through a management change. I don't think it's close to certain the SoS will provide a licenced champion in 2022-23. That will mean a two legged playoff between WoS & EoS.

I don't know about you but i've seen plenty of two legged ties where a 2-0 in the 1st leg gets overturned in the 2nd leg. We'll never know what would have happened between Darvel & Tranent if it had been over two legs.

 

[Kennie]

22 hours ago, Sermani said:

Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7? The SFA? The PWG?  maybe the South teams will decide they want to be downgraded?  and what grounds would it be on and would anybody admit to it being placed in the wrong tier in the first place?

Even though i stay in the South West  i maybe get to about half a dozen SOS games in a season, i mainly watch my local LL or now league 1 team, but any time i've been to a game in the  SOS and mentioned the Pyramid to anybody it doesn't seem to be an issue.  The clubs just seem happy to play in there own league against other local teams.  Honestly i think if it was moved down a tier the majority of clubs might think it was injust but would just accept it.  

Personally i think the SOS was placed in a tier to high. As for amalgamating with the WOSFL, NO!  Can't see that being attractive to many of the clubs on competitive terms or travelling. D&G has the highest average population age in Scotland, no major industries, most employment is in the service industries, tourism or farming which involves evening /weekend work, players/club officials cant commit to that .In the last few years the Dumfries  Saturday league and the Stewartry/Wigtownshire Sunday leagues have disappeared-lack of players-rubbish facilities. Unlike the central belt if you shake a tree down here, half a dozen football players don't fall out! There are a lot of good traditional clubs down, with hard working comittees trying there best to improve facilities and playing standards. If it's not broke, why fix it.

The only problem i see needing sorting out with the SOSFL is what to do with the League champion regards play-off, promotion?  Clubs with ambition can always try there luck elsewhere, it will be interesting to see where Threave Rovers are placed in the WOSFL.  

I'm not afiliated to any club, this is just an opinion of a fee paying local fan before my opinions are disected and ripped to shreds.

And i'm watching Glastonbury and i couldn't be bothered using spell checker either.

 

Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7?

More to the point where does the SoSFL Winner go?

I cant imagine the WoSFL teams agreeing to a League sitting adjacent to their First Division with entry to the Premier Division.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

16 hours ago, rockson said:

You are of the opinion that the standard of the SoSFL is lower than  other leagues at Tier 6. That may well be true but it is of no relevance in the wider world where the only thing that matters is the result of the three-way W/E/S oSFL play-off at the end of the season.

If you care to look back, that's exactly what I have stated the SOSFL does not add to the Bottleneck or the problems with the pyramid system.
What I do state is the SOSF league will be a problem if the Lowland league opens up their relegation in a certain way, 2 automatics relegated and 3rd bottom in playoff.
Why, we are all of agreement that we would expect the strongest teams to be promoted from whatever league they are in, so if the pyramid was worked out well but having the, for example the SOSFL winners playoff against 3rd bottom is of no use to the pyramid as I'd expect every team to beat the SOSFL champions,  ffs St Cuthbert's were beaten , was it 7.0 at Tranent and beaten at home 3.1 by Darvel, in the playoffs, that's a vast gulf

If the LL ever increases its number of relegation spots that play-off - or whatever replaces it - will still be the only thing that matters.
Well no, I'd expect to see two automictic promotions, (EOSFL , WOSFL)  and then a playoff with maybe I'd already muted, (3rd bottom of LL, Winners of the SOSFL and both 2nd placed teams of the EOSFL and the WOSFL)

No WoSl or EoSL team is in any way disadvantaged by the SoSL at Tier 6. To gain promotion they have to win their leagues and then the play-offs. If they can't do that then they don't deserve promotion.

Whenever I reply to someone or quote them I try and look back at their posts on the thread to see their views, incase I've picked them up wrong.  Not once have I said its disadvantage to the EOSFL or the WOSFL, (you seem to be thinking I'm the spokesman for them) ( I'm not interested or affiliated in who is the best/strongest/weakest league in general) but they are the leagues with premiers at Tier 6 whom I believe are of a higher standard than the SOSFL.  I believe my point is valid if it ever got to 2 automatics relegations from the Lowland and  the 3rd bottom is in a playoff, the standard of the SOSFL team is of a low standard and should not be competing at that level which we all know there is way stronger teams,  in the other two divisions who should be given access to the playoff to help stop the bottleneck.

Similarly the NCL in the North is probably of a lower overall standard than the former Junior leagues in the north now also at Tier 6 but there is no clamour for the NCL's Tier 6 status to be taken away. As in the south licenced teams in the north winning their league have a play-off chance to gain promotion.

Right now the north isn't relevant to this post, those leagues are only relevant to the Highland League so should not be in this post / debate

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Bestsinceslicebread]

15 hours ago, Kennie said:

Who would decide if the SOSFL was to be downgraded to tier 7?
Officially i suppose it would be the WOSFL if they allowed it but would the Lowland would have a vote as well ?
Actually  a bit of a quagmire, I'm lost now, i haven't a clue who would have to vote for it

More to the point where does the SoSFL Winner go?
Think if it were a choice it would be the WOSFL as the EOSFL teams look further away, or am I wrong

I cant imagine the WoSFL teams agreeing to a League sitting adjacent to their First Division with entry to the Premier Division.
I cant either

 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Bestsinceslicebread

[rockson]

23 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Right now the north isn't relevant to this post, those leagues are only relevant to the Highland League so should not be in this post / debate.

But their situation is more or less the same as the SoSFL..

 

 

[rockson]

23 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

We'll never know what would have happened between Darvel & Tranent if it had been over two legs.

 

I never mentioned Darvel or Tranent. But Tranent did win the triangular play-off. That's all that matters.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, rockson said:

I never mentioned Darvel or Tranent. But Tranent did win the triangular play-off. That's all that matters.

The point is we don't know what the result would have been a two legged tie. Which it can be from time to time. That's due to the sporadic involvement of the SoS.

 

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, rockson said:

Right now the north isn't relevant to this post, those leagues are only relevant to the Highland League so should not be in this post / debate.

But their situation is more or less the same as the SoSFL..

But its got nothing to do with this situation in the SOSFL thread.  No relevance to what this post is about 

Edited June 26, 2022 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Burnieman]

52 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The point is we don't know what the result would have been a two legged tie. Which it can be from time to time. That's due to the sporadic involvement of the SoS.

Correct.   Having a poor SoS side taking part in the PO doesn't come without consequences.  Would Darvel have overturned the defeat to Tranent in a two-legged tie had there been an unlicenced SoS Champ? we'll never know.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

So Darvel failed but, hypothetically, if the SoSFL was there they might not have failed?

This still isn't a disadvantage to East/West clubs. Otherwise the same argument could be made in reverse. If there was no licensed SoSFL club and Darvel won the 2nd leg 5-0 would the SoSFL then be a disadvantage to Tranent?

[FairWeatherFan]

8 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

So Darvel failed but, hypothetically, if the SoSFL was there they might not have failed?

That's usually how two legged ties work. There's a 2nd change to rectify what happened in the first league.

8 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

This still isn't a disadvantage to East/West clubs.

Cool, we can scrap all the two legged playoffs. Just extends the calendar with meaningless games. The HL/LL will be happy they don't have to finish their seasons in the middle of April anymore.

8 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

If there was no licensed SoSFL club and Darvel won the 2nd leg 5-0 would the SoSFL then be a disadvantage to Tranent?

No, because both teams played each other twice. Each with home field advantage.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

1 minute ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Cool, we can scrap all the two legged playoffs.

Nope. But unnecessary in a three way play off. Although if there is a hue and cry about it making the three-way play off two legged is a workable option without punting the South

[Yalay]

East and West clubs are disadvantaged by the South being Tier 6 because the South champion could actually win the playoff. It's much easier for a weaker team to win one or two football matches against a stronger team than to perform better than the stronger team over the course of an entire season. In order for the playoff to be fair, the East/West/South would need to all be of equal strength, which is simply not the case.

What if instead of awarding the title of "Scottish Champions" to the winners of the Premiership, you awarded it to the winner of a play-off between the Premiership and the Championship? If Kilmarnock managed to win against Celtic, would you think they had rightfully earned the title, or would you recognize the win as a fluke and the playoff as inherently unfair?

And yes, as others have mentioned a two legged playoff between the East and West champions would result in the stronger club winning more often than in the current three-way playoff format. You could say that the three clubs could just play home-and-away, but that would require four matches over six matchdays. It's understandable why clubs don't want to add that much to the end of the season, and if they were willing to do so, then having the East and West champions play each other four times would be even better.

Next, the situation with the South of Scotland league and the North Caledonian league are similar, but the situation with the South is much more extreme. Both leagues are smaller and weaker than the other tier 6 leagues in their region, but the North Caledonian league is much closer to the North Juniors/Midlands league, in terms of both playing strength and number of member clubs, than the South is to the East/West. Plus the NCL covers a huge geographical area and there is no obvious way to rearrange leagues to make them more fair. Conversely, the South covers a much smaller area than either East/West and could simply be integrated into the WoSFL.

Finally, I do not understand why the South clubs and fans would want to play in a league where they have very little chance to actually move up. And if a South club does get promoted, it would likely be quickly relegated. Wouldn't it be much more interesting to have a legitimate chance of promotion, and to have that promotion be to a league where you are actually competitive?

[Cornishman]

If WoS clubs; say from Ayr & Southward; could be drafted into the SoS, then the latter could become a very much more viable league at tier6 n'est-ce-pas?

While I readily anticipate inertia against the idea for predictable reasons, there is some merit in allowing clubs in the area the alternative, ostensibly easier, route to promotion chances and in the creation of a much stronger third LL-feeder, create stronger argument for a larger LL trapdoor to tier6!

Further, with the emigration of those clubs from WoS, that league will itself concertina into a sleeker competition, with greater opportunities for all remaining clubs to rise in the hierarchy. Thus established, the argument for a three-up/down arrangement between tier5 & tier6 would be paramount, particularly were the LL to increase to an 18-team competition (which it has already been proven easily possible!).

 

[EdinburghBlue]

Based on this season’s playoffs surely it would be fairer for the South winners to play off against the West, with the winners playing against the East?

[Bad Wolf]

12 hours ago, Yalay said:

East and West clubs are disadvantaged by the South being Tier 6 because the South champion could actually win the playoff. It's much easier for a weaker team to win one or two football matches against a stronger team than to perform better than the stronger team over the course of an entire season. In order for the playoff to be fair, the East/West/South would need to all be of equal strength, which is simply not the case.

What if instead of awarding the title of "Scottish Champions" to the winners of the Premiership, you awarded it to the winner of a play-off between the Premiership and the Championship? If Kilmarnock managed to win against Celtic, would you think they had rightfully earned the title, or would you recognize the win as a fluke and the playoff as inherently unfair?

And yes, as others have mentioned a two legged playoff between the East and West champions would result in the stronger club winning more often than in the current three-way playoff format. You could say that the three clubs could just play home-and-away, but that would require four matches over six matchdays. It's understandable why clubs don't want to add that much to the end of the season, and if they were willing to do so, then having the East and West champions play each other four times would be even better.

Next, the situation with the South of Scotland league and the North Caledonian league are similar, but the situation with the South is much more extreme. Both leagues are smaller and weaker than the other tier 6 leagues in their region, but the North Caledonian league is much closer to the North Juniors/Midlands league, in terms of both playing strength and number of member clubs, than the South is to the East/West. Plus the NCL covers a huge geographical area and there is no obvious way to rearrange leagues to make them more fair. Conversely, the South covers a much smaller area than either East/West and could simply be integrated into the WoSFL.

Finally, I do not understand why the South clubs and fans would want to play in a league where they have very little chance to actually move up. And if a South club does get promoted, it would likely be quickly relegated. Wouldn't it be much more interesting to have a legitimate chance of promotion, and to have that promotion be to a league where you are actually competitive?

To respond to the parts I've bolded -

 

1. If the East or West champions lose to the South champions in a playoff, then they aren't good enough to be promoted. That's how competitive sport works. If you see your club playing a team who might be better than them as a disadvantage, I'd suggest that sport isn't for you.

 

2. By the same token, this season's magnificent West Superlea.... er sorry, Premier Division, was sooooo unfair (Kevin the teenager voice here) as Darvel, Talbot and Pollok were clearly much better than Ladeside, Glencairn and the rest. I'm sure those teams and their fans are looking forward to being less disadvantaged next season.

 

3. There is literally no evidence for this assertion, but at least some for the converse.

 

4. Nor this one, you could be right though. Just as I could be right in my gut feeling, backed up with precisely feck all evidence I freely admit, that large swathes of West clubs have no chance of promotion, would fail hilariously in higher leagues, and don't want it anyway. 

[vikingTON]

On 25/06/2022 at 19:55, rockson said:

 

Similarly the NCL in the North is probably of a lower overall standard than the former Junior leagues in the north now also at Tier 6 but there is no clamour for the NCL's Tier 6 status to be taken away. 

Once an Ayrshire Junior team bottles it in the tier 5 play-off as well, you can bet your house that the NCL and the entire north pyramid will attract the concern of those who just want them to play at their 'correct' level. 

The South is the thin end of a wedge that will give us a Central Belt pyramid to the exclusion of all other regions in the country. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

On 26/06/2022 at 20:57, Burnieman said:

Would Darvel have overturned the defeat to Tranent in a two-legged tie had there been an unlicenced SoS Champ? we'll never know.

And we'll never care either. 

[Bad Wolf]

7 hours ago, Cornishman said:

If WoS clubs; say from Ayr & Southward; could be drafted into the SoS, then the latter could become a very much more viable league at tier6 n'est-ce-pas?

While I readily anticipate inertia against the idea for predictable reasons, there is some merit in allowing clubs in the area the alternative, ostensibly easier, route to promotion chances and in the creation of a much stronger third LL-feeder, create stronger argument for a larger LL trapdoor to tier6!

Further, with the emigration of those clubs from WoS, that league will itself concertina into a sleeker competition, with greater opportunities for all remaining clubs to rise in the hierarchy. Thus established, the argument for a three-up/down arrangement between tier5 & tier6 would be paramount, particularly were the LL to increase to an 18-team competition (which it has already been proven easily possible!).

 

Half a dozen south Ayrshire teams joining would make geographical sense and would as you suggest strengthen the structure of both leagues. I'm not sure that your ideas of the long term effects aren't just wishful thinking, but it certainly wouldn't weaken hopes of future improvement in the promotion and relegation structure of the pyramid. I also readily anticipate inertia though, sadly.