Tier 7 solution for SOS League

[Burnieman]

On 20/06/2022 at 21:45, Bad Wolf said:

I see no economic reason why Upper Annandale (my local SoS teuchters) can't compete with Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc;

They probably can, join the WoS and play them.

Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc are in the lower reaches of the Pyramid as that is equal to their on-field ability. Meanwhile, Upper Annandale - who may or may not be of similar quality - are at a level equal to the Premier League of both WoS and EoS, which you yourself admitted they couldn't compete with.

Yet, you're wanting a persuasive argument as to why they shouldn't be at that level.  You just made it yourself.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Burnieman

[AsimButtHitsASix]

3 hours ago, Burnieman said:

You've not been paying attention then.

The two arguments I've seen are:

1- The quality isn't as high

Although this is true there is nothing to say that all leagues at the same tier should be forced to be at the same level. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (without fluid boundaries). Why it has to be the case here hasn't been explained. It doesn't do any harm to the other tier 6 leagues. Either the South teams are so shite they wont win the play offs anyway (no harm done) or the South teams will win the play off which makes a mockery of the claim they're too shit to be at tier 6. Unless there is another way the South is harming the East and West and it has been claimed...

2- The LL says the SoSFL is the reason they wont open promotion

So far I've yet to see the direct quote on this, but will take it in good faith, but the LL also said the Colts were a one year thing and they also said they wouldn't expland to 19 clubs. Have we now reached "trust the LL when we agree with them but call them out for being charlatans when we don't" levels of hypocrisy? The LL reaching for any reason they can muster for not opening promotion would exist whether the SoSFL existed or not. Indeed if the South were sent down a tier I'd bet the LL would claim it's the absence of a feeder league for their D&G teams which is the reason they wont open up.

[Burnieman]

12 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

2- The LL says the SoSFL is the reason they wont open promotion

That's not what was said at all.   I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open upto automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6.   I kinda agree with that as you'll either get no SoS Champ as only 3 are licenced, or you'll have a reluctant Champ who don't really want to play in the LL and are nowhere near strong enough.

That of course, doesn't hinder the LL opening up further in other ways, I'm only recounting what I was told and illustrates that having the SoS at tier 6 doesn't come with zero impact.   IMO if there was just the EoS and WoS at tier 6, there would be an easier discussion around auto promotion/relegation of two clubs.

I'm not here to defend the LL, far from it.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

1- The quality isn't as high

Although this is true there is nothing to say that all leagues at the same tier should be forced to be at the same level. That doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (without fluid boundaries). Why it has to be the case here hasn't been explained. It doesn't do any harm to the other tier 6 leagues. Either the South teams are so shite they wont win the play offs anyway (no harm done) or the South teams will win the play off which makes a mockery of the claim they're too shit to be at tier 6. Unless there is another way the South is harming the East and West and it has been claimed...
 

The WoS and EoS side of things will sort itself out. Being artificially high is more a detriment to the South itself. As Threave Rovers moving on and Gretna 2008's preference not to be relegated there highlights.

Even when the Lowland was in its infancy, and arguably at its weakest, Threave Rovers struggled.

 

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

5 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm not here to defend the LL, far from it.

But repeating their claim that the SoSFL ties their hands in any way does defend them even if not by design. It's a complete red herring. Firstly, it doesn't stop them opening up two spots, and, secondly, even if they did open up three, if the level is as poor as they claim, that spot will just bounce up and down between the SoSFL. Now, at that point, when better teams are being denied relegation regularly while St. Cuthberts and Dalbeattie play musical chairs between the LL/SoSFL there could be an argument it's harming the other leagues.

Until then it's not. 

[Burnieman]

5 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

But repeating their claim that the SoSFL ties their hands in any way does defend them even if not by design. It's a complete red herring. Firstly, it doesn't stop them opening up two spots, and, secondly, even if they did open up three, if the level is as poor as they claim, that spot will just bounce up and down between the SoSFL. Now, at that point, when better teams are being denied relegation regularly while St. Cuthberts and Dalbeattie play musical chairs between the LL/SoSFL there could be an argument it's harming the other leagues.

Until then it's not. 

Jeezo, I'm telling you what I was told, and it rings true.  You either agree with that approach or not, but that is clearly in the minds of people involved with the LL.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

I only agree that they are saying it's in their minds. When analysing their claim it's clearly a red herring. The SoSFL doesn't prohibit their ability to open promotion at all. 

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I only agree that they are saying it's in their minds. When analysing their claim it's clearly a red herring. The SoSFL doesn't prohibit their ability to open promotion at all. 

Yip, and I already said that.

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

But repeating their claim that the SoSFL ties their hands in any way does defend them even if not by design. It's a complete red herring. Firstly, it doesn't stop them opening up two spots, and, secondly, even if they did open up three, if the level is as poor as they claim, that spot will just bounce up and down between the SoSFL. Now, at that point, when better teams are being denied relegation regularly while St. Cuthberts and Dalbeattie play musical chairs between the LL/SoSFL there could be an argument it's harming the other leagues.

Until then it's not. 

I'd be interested to see what the SoSFL did in the case of opening up 3 spots. As it was the pre-Junior EoSFL that was seeking increased promotion. The South during PWG meetings being happy to reduce their opportunities at promotion from 1/2 to 1/3 and even 1/4.

 

 

[AsimButtHitsASix]

8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'd be interested to see what the SoSFL did in the case of opening up 3 spots. As it was the pre-Junior EoSFL that was seeking increased promotion. The South during PWG meetings being happy to reduce their opportunities at promotion from 1/2 to 1/3 and even 1/4.

 

 

True. Opening up two places would still see the three team play off with the top going up. In the case of three the South might be open to a play off with 2nd in the other two leagues while the other winners go straight up?

The point being there may be other opportunities to address the imbalance without harming the clubs in the South to do have grander ambitions and, also, giving clubs from D&G that drop down a division that makes more sense to them than going East or West. Teams like Lochmaben, with no real ability (or desire?) for promotion wouldn't have much issue with being dropped down a tier but that isn't true for all of them.

As much fun as arguing about future hypotheticals is it is all hypothetical. Currently there is no need to drop the South down. 

[VodkaTap]

I have followed this topic with great interest ( as I do all posts on LL, SOS & WOS).
Basically there is much ado about not very much.
To me there is a lot of folk getting het up about the injustice of where the SOS should be in the grand scheme of the pyramid.

Right now, the WOS are heading towards an 80 team limit.
Within that number, at what level the SOS is at, really doesn’t matter to the vast majority, since the twain will never meet (except occasionally in a Cup.)
 
So really any bone of contention between the WOS & SOS would only affect the top of the  premier league.
 
I totally agree that the bottleneck right now is solely with how the LL have dealt with the number of teams for relegation.

Without question that number should be increased – to what is still for debate 
I also don’t feel that the SOS would be inflexible or dogmatic in any of those discussions

I have a question for Burnieman.

You stated

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6.  
Are you claiming that the conversations you have have represent the views of all in the LL ??
Can you clarify just how many clubs were represented in your sample conversations ?

The number of clubs represented is critical since if we take the other highly contentious decision recently about colts, a poll from one side or the other would give a highly skewed view and not representative of the LL at all.

[Bad Wolf]

6 hours ago, Burnieman said:

They probably can, join the WoS and play them.

Lugar, Maybole, Forth etc are in the lower reaches of the Pyramid as that is equal to their on-field ability. Meanwhile, Upper Annandale - who may or may not be of similar quality - are at a level equal to the Premier League of both WoS and EoS, which you yourself admitted they couldn't compete with.

Yet, you're wanting a persuasive argument as to why they shouldn't be at that level.  You just made it yourself.

I disagree. The status quo is as it is, surely it's those who wish to change it who need to find persuasive arguments. I didn't say Uppers couldn't compete with all clubs in the East and West Premiers, I was quite specific in the examples I chose - town or city clubs, not village clubs, with large supports (by Scottish non-league standards), and the ambition to move up the pyramid. There are many clubs in those divisions who don't fit those criteria.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Bad Wolf

[FairWeatherFan]

Putting the non-league pyramid together 20ish years ago would have been so much simpler.

There would have been some jockeying for positions but you would have ended up with something along the lines of:

Highland* - NCL/North/Tayside

West* - Central/Ayrshire/SoSFL

East* - Fife/Lothians/EoSFL

*Just because there's one name there, doesn't mean it's a single division. Different regions would have different depths which could be true of the districts.

 

[rockson]

7 hours ago, Burnieman said:

You've not been paying attention then.

The argument may have been made but the conclusion from it hasn't.

[vikingTON]

4 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

The WoS and EoS side of things will sort itself out. Being artificially high is more a detriment to the South itself. As Threave Rovers moving on and Gretna 2008's preference not to be relegated there highlights.

Threave might have a compelling case if they had skooshed the league by 20+ points this season. Instead they finished a relatively distant second, so quite why we're supposed to regard their application as a damning inditement on the SoS is a mystery. 

 

[Burnieman]

3 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

I have a question for Burnieman.

You stated

 I have had conversations with people in the LL who say that having the SoS at tier 6 makes it problematic to open up to automatic promotion for the three Champions clubs at tier 6.  
Are you claiming that the conversations you have have represent the views of all in the LL ??
Can you clarify just how many clubs were represented in your sample conversations ?

The number of clubs represented is critical since if we take the other highly contentious decision recently about colts, a poll from one side or the other would give a highly skewed view and not representative of the LL at all.

The details of my conversation on the subject are of course confidential, however my understanding was (and this was about a year ago) that this is the general view of member clubs.  There was no chance that all three Champions would gain an automatic promotion spot, and that at best - short term - we would see half-a-spot increase via the second bottom team involved in the play-off. We're not even at that stage yet.

It's not for me to say whether this is accurate or not, I simply don't know, however I have no reason to disbelieve my source and I think people know me well enough by now to know I don't BS on stuff like this.

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

I disagree. The status quo is as it is, surely it's those who wish to change it who need to find persuasive arguments. I didn't say Uppers couldn't compete with all clubs in the East and West Premiers, I was quite specific in the examples I chose - town or city clubs, not village clubs, with large supports (by Scottish non-league standards), and the ambition to move up the pyramid. There are many clubs in those divisions who don't fit those criteria.

I don't think there is anyone actively seeking to change it within the game (that might change at this upcoming PWG meeting), change will probably come from the SoS itself and I think they realise continuation at tier 6 long term probably isn't in their best interests, particularly when one of their historically stronger clubs and SFA members resigns and goes to the WoS.

All we're doing here is kicking the idea around on an internet forum.

[VodkaTap]

1 hour ago, Burnieman said:

The details of my conversation on the subject are of course confidential, however my understanding was (and this was about a year ago) that this is the general view of member clubs.  There was no chance that all three Champions would gain an automatic promotion spot, and that at best - short term - we would see half-a-spot increase via the second bottom team involved in the play-off. We're not even at that stage yet.

It's not for me to say whether this is accurate or not, I simply don't know, however I have no reason to disbelieve my source and I think people know me well enough by now to know I don't BS on stuff like this.

I did not ask for, nor would I expect you to, provide any information gained in a confidential conversation.

I was merely trying to ascertain how representative the views you are stating are.

Was it simply one clubs representative view - or a collection of club representatives and how may of them  ??

As we have seen on other issues being dealt with by the LL, decisions taken can vary wildly in a much shorter time frame than those stated a year ago.

 

Edited June 23, 2022 by VodkaTap

[Burnieman]

19 minutes ago, VodkaTap said:

I did not ask for, nor would I expect you to, provide any information gained in a confidential conversation.

I was merely trying to ascertain how representative the views you are stating are.

Was it simply one clubs representative view - or a collection of club representatives and how may of them  ??

As we have seen on other issues being dealt with by the LL, decisions taken can vary wildly in a much shorter time frame than those stated a year ago.

I'm more than satisfied that it was a view held by the LL at the time.  Their recent reluctance to expand relegation/promotion beyond one club probably underlines it even more.

If the LL ever goes to 3 up/down by promoting all 3 tier 6 Champs then feel free to come back and pick me up on it, I'd be delighted.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

I'm more than satisfied that it was a view held by the LL at the time.  Their recent reluctance to expand relegation/promotion beyond one club probably underlines it even more.

If the LL ever goes to 3 up/down by promoting all 3 tier 6 Champs then feel free to come back and pick me up on it, I'd be delighted.

Gretna 2008 retaining their membership to the EoSFA, East Kilbride holding membership in the EoSFA for a while. LL2 working group, the BSC led/but LL supported WoSFL proposal in 17/18, the insistence on a West feeder. I don't think there were many keen on being relegated to the South.

Braves retaining their association is more about propping up the Edusport Academy business.