Tier 7 solution for SOS League

[AsimButtHitsASix]

2 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

I've read your post again and genuinely think to myself, why is this guy coming out with this, doesn't he see the standard is way different, doesn't he see the pyramid bottleneck should be made easier to sort.

 

Yes I do see the standard is different, I've argued why that's irrelevant, and the South of Scotland league doesn't affect the bottle neck. The refusal of the LL to open up to the tiers below does. 

[EdinburghBlue]

It might be nice to get some fans of South of Scotland League teams in this debate

An opportunity was missed when the West league was set up, but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be helpful to get round the table now. One of the problems in the south is the huge range in standards. At the very top there are teams who would be competitive in the top east/west leagues, but at the bottom teams who would struggle ever to get out of the bottom tier. So there would be benefits in having a different structure that would satisfy both, and deal with the needs of the bigger teams in the regions should they fall through the Lowland. (I would not want my team to fall into the South, although it might be easier to get out of.)

Discussions should also recognise geography. Despite the Scottish Government’s lack of interest in restoring the A77 at Glenapp to two lanes, let alone the needed dual carriageway, it’s still quicker/easier to get to Glasgow from Stranraer than it is to get to Annan, Gretna, Moffat etc. So regionalisation at Tier 6 (or 7 or wherever) that recognises transport challenges would be an improvement on one arbitrarily based on Council boundaries. (This isn’t just a football issue. D&G Health Board are now responding to concerns from that providing some cancer treatment in Edinburgh because it’s easier to access from Dumfries than is Glasgow isn’t great for folks in Wigtownshire.)

[vikingTON]

On 21/06/2022 at 21:42, Burnieman said:

The post was complete garbage, hence the eh. 

The quote was "The point is of course that Ormiston, Pumpherston, Lugar, Maybole etc aren't sitting in a league at tier 6 with direct entry to a LL PO."

Anyway, this is getting surreal.

Having 'direct entry' into a play-off is applicable to 4th within all three 10 team leagues in the SPFL itself. So your presentation of this as an inexplicable luxury awarded to the South of Scotland league champions is nonsense. It is a 'direct' entry to promotion to a higher level in the same way that Ayr United's was to the top flight. 

Short of three relegation spots (highly unlikely) opening up: what exactly is the issue here? 

9 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Discussions should also recognise geography. Despite the Scottish Government’s lack of interest in restoring the A77 at Glenapp to two lanes, let alone the needed dual carriageway, it’s still quicker/easier to get to Glasgow from Stranraer than it is to get to Annan, Gretna, Moffat etc. So regionalisation at Tier 6 (or 7 or wherever) that recognises transport challenges would be an improvement on one arbitrarily based on Council boundaries. (This isn’t just a football issue. D&G Health Board are now responding to concerns from that providing some cancer treatment in Edinburgh because it’s easier to access from Dumfries than is Glasgow isn’t great for folks in Wigtownshire.)

I agree with the general point but I don't think that the current boundaries are based strictly on council area; otherwise Kello Rovers would surely be in the South. 

There needs to be an established and enforced boundary between West and South that reflects practical geography (actual time/petrol spent from point A to B). Perhaps Stranraer and any notional Rhinns area team could have leeway between the two - but then Stranraer 'Reserves/B' (not really affiliated) have played in the South for years without apparent issue.

Threave's bid to enter the WoS after floundering in their own region rides a coach and horses through this and should not be accepted by any right-thinking league committee. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by vikingTON

[Burnieman]

4 minutes ago, virginton said:

Having 'direct entry' into a play-off is applicable to 4th within all three 10 team leagues in the SPFL itself. So your presentation of this as an inexplicable luxury awarded to the South of Scotland league champions is nonsense. It is a 'direct' entry to promotion to a higher level in the same way that Ayr United's was to the top flight. 

Short of three relegation spots (highly unlikely) opening up: what exactly is the issue here? 

 

You still getting your knickers in a twist over one word, seriously?  you're so far removed from the original point even I'm forgetting what it is your havering about

[Burnieman]

7 minutes ago, virginton said:

Threave's bid to enter the WoS after floundering in their own region rides a coach and horses through this and should not be accepted by any right-thinking league committee. 

[vikingTON]

23 hours ago, Bestsinceslicebread said:

Again, they are involved in the Highland section so they are not affecting the bottle neck in the Lowland section, so nothing to do with the post

I do not think these views because i live in the WOSFL catchment area. I have these views being at plenty of games in the EOS and WOS and quite a few of the SOS in the past 7 years so this is where I get my views and it, well i believe, are objective even though i live in the WOS area.

I've read your post again and genuinely think to myself, why is this guy coming out with this, doesn't he see the standard is way different, doesn't he see the pyramid bottleneck should be made easier to sort.

The two causes of the 'pyramid bottle-neck' (from a failed grade perspective) are objectively:

• The LL's refusal to open up additional relegation/play-off spots due to shameless self-preservation, and

• Souped-up Darvel's hilarious failure to actually shit and get off the pot as champions of the highly vaunted WoS - who incidentally slithered past the lowly South champions in the final tournament.

There is absolutely zero causal relationship between the 'bottleneck' that you complain about and the current status of the South of Scotland league. You could punt it into tier 10 and nothing of significance would change for the clubs that you are white knighting for. 

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You still getting your knickers in a twist over one word, seriously?  you're so far removed from the original point even I'm forgetting what it is your havering about

Thanks for confirming that when you said 'direct entry' you didn't actually mean 'direct' by any credible use of the word. Your mewling climbdown is noted. 

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

There is absolutely zero causal relationship between the 'bottleneck' that you complain about and the current status of the South of Scotland league. You could punt it into tier 10 and nothing of significance would change for the clubs that you are white knighting for. 

Perhaps if you had a grasp of the situation rather than taking wild stabs in the dark, and actually went and talked to people involved in the LL (which you can't do as you don't know anyone), then the SoS at tier 6 is a factor.  I'm not saying it should be used as an excuse to restrict promotion, but it's a factor.

[Burnieman]

2 minutes ago, virginton said:

Thanks for confirming that when you said 'direct entry' you didn't actually mean 'direct' by any credible use of the word. Your mewling climbdown is noted. 

  you really are a virgin aren't you?

Edited June 22, 2022 by Burnieman

[vikingTON]

10 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Perhaps if you had a grasp of the situation rather than taking wild stabs in the dark, and actually went and talked to people involved in the LL (which you can't do as you don't know anyone), then the SoS at tier 6 is a factor.  I'm not saying it should be used as an excuse to restrict promotion, but it's a factor.

Did you happen to buy volcano insurance while Edusport, Cumbernauld Colts and a fucking podcast outfit were telling you that the presence of the South of Scotland league at tier 6 is limiting 'ventilation' into their cesspool of a league? 

 That you believe (or even claim to believe) such utterly risible nonsense reflects far worse on yourself than literally anyone else commenting on this thread.

What an absolute fucking chump.  

Edited June 22, 2022 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

7 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

  you really are a virgin aren't you?

You hate to see it happen. 

[Burnieman]

Just now, virginton said:

Did you happen to buy volcano insurance while Edusport, Cumbernauld Colts and a fucking podcast outfit were telling you that the presence of the South of Scotland league at tier 6 is limiting 'ventilation' into their cesspool of a league? 

 That you believe (or claim to believe) such utterly risible nonsense reflects far worse on yourself than anyone else on this thread champ.

You haven't an earthly what you're talking about, you bluster your way through posts and pick people up on word usage. That's all you have, which is nothing.

Frankly, your insane rantings on here are best ignored. You probably picked this thread at random to give yourself some self esteem, it certainly isn't to add to the debate.

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

You hate to see it happen. 

Wow

[vikingTON]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You haven't an earthly what you're talking about, you bluster your way through posts and pick people up on word usage. That's all you have, which is nothing.

Frankly, your insane rantings on here are best ignored. You probably picked this thread at random to give yourself some self esteem, it certainly isn't to add to the debate.

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

What evidence did 'Si' Ferry and the gang give you to show that St Cuthbert's Wanderers playing at tier 6 is the Gordian knot preventing a functioning pyramid coming to pass? Be very specific - we could do with some comedy. 

Edited June 22, 2022 by vikingTON

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, virginton said:

^^^ sobbing uncontrollably

What evidence did 'Si' Ferry and the gang give you to show that St Cuthbert's Wanderers playing at tier 6 is the Gordian knot preventing a functioning pyramid coming to pass? Be very specific - we could do with some comedy. 

I think you're already creating the comedy, or is it head shaking pity? give it up before the hole becomes too deep

[Bestsinceslicebread]

22 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Yes I do see the standard is different, I've argued why that's irrelevant, and the South of Scotland league doesn't affect the bottle neck. The refusal of the LL to open up to the tiers below does. 

Yes I do see the standard is different.
Wit is going on, the standard is different, no it is not, there's  gulf.

I've argued why that's irrelevant
Not sure who with, each of your points I have broken down and informed you why I think your points are wrong

and the South of Scotland league doesn't affect the bottle neck
Right now it doesn't, but if it stays the way it is then it will cause problems

The refusal of the LL to open up to the tiers below does. 
Feck the LL, we get it right, below the LL it makes them look stupid and everyoen knows the WOS, EOS and SOS al have their house sin order then all eyes are on Lowland to get the relegation crap sorted

Right now, the Lowland is using the excuse that because the SPFL2 only have  a playoff for club 42 then Lowland can arrange the promotion and relegation like the leagues lower down, i.e two clubs automatically relegated

[Bestsinceslicebread]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

The two causes of the 'pyramid bottle-neck' (from a failed grade perspective) are objectively:

• The LL's refusal to open up additional relegation/play-off spots due to shameless self-preservation, and

• Souped-up Darvel's hilarious failure to actually shit and get off the pot as champions of the highly vaunted WoS - who incidentally slithered past the lowly South champions in the final tournament.

There is absolutely zero causal relationship between the 'bottleneck' that you complain about and the current status of the South of Scotland league. You could punt it into tier 10 and nothing of significance would change for the clubs that you are white knighting for. 

 

The LL's refusal to open up additional relegation/play-off spots due to shameless self-preservation, and

Yes we all in agreement about the LL clubs but the same crap would happen if the Ayrshire teams were in the same situation or the central teams were in the same situation, just the LL clubs got there first

Souped-up Darvel's hilarious failure to actually shit and get off the pot as champions of the highly vaunted WoS - who incidentally slithered past the lowly South champions in the final tournament.

Comments about hilarious failure etc.., don't get why your saying stuff like that, seems like your not interested in having  a constructive general debate about the points raised. They never slithered by St Cuthberts, They won, easily with a weakened squad against the SOSFL league champions 3 . 1 and previously the SOSFL champions were pumped by the EOSFL champions 7.0.  When Darvel played against Tranent, which I watched, Tranent deserved the win, hands down and with Darvel missing key players and, my view, total disrespect of Tranent thinking it would be an easy win, and yes I though Darvel would win in a close game before the game started.

 

There is absolutely zero causal relationship between the 'bottleneck' that you complain about and the current status of the South of Scotland league. You could punt it into tier 10 and nothing of significance would change for the clubs that you are white knighting for. 

Did I say that or did it came across as that, some people look to the future and see problems which could or can arise due the the current affairs'. As you say, doesn't matter what tier SOSFL are at the now it doesn't affect the bottleneck but it will if they stay at a level, (tier 6) in the future.   None and I mean none of those teams are a tier 6 club and should be  no where near that level.  
There is no doubt it should be a straight promotion for the WOSFL champions and the EOSFL champions to the Lowland league with two dropping down and the 3rd bottom of the Lowland league should go into a round robin with the 2nd placed EOSFL team and the 2nd placed WOSFL team.  If this did materialize the SOSFL would be down at their correct level tier, (still debatable which tier they should be at, and I cant say as I haven't watched all the teams from that league)
I don't say this as someone for the WOSFL or the WEST or the EOSFL or the East or even for the SOSFL, I'm saying it from my experienced and being objection with no influence in support of a team or area, just as a person who wants the pyramid in a totally fluid movement or promotion and relegation with every team, knowing their dreams and visions can become reality if they just improve. 

 

 

[Bad Wolf]

On 21/06/2022 at 00:38, Bestsinceslicebread said:

A few points I disagree with to be fair

Is everyone in agreement that the SOSFL is a lower level of the type of standard of teams than the EOSFL and the WOSFL in both premier leagues ?
If this is true then the SOSFL should not be at tier 6, it should be down one level at least, (or should it be lower down), even along side the WOSFL tier 7, how to adopt promotion from two tier 7s then that's up to the most skillful to work out.

Every team should reach the level that they are at and with the SOSFL staying at tier 6, too many low standard teams are at a level they should not be at.
The consequences of change have valid points good and bad, which has been noted above but if the winner of the SOSFL if at tier 7 doesn't need to be promoted if they think it would be detrimental to their existence with travelling.
We all want the pyramid to work and there's problems with the SPFL2 and the LL that needs to be addressed which at the moment are leaving bottle necks below them.  I think they will be eventually sorted but only time will tell but I do think to make it easier EOSFL and WOSFL should be the only two fighting for the promotionf. 

So if the Lowland had two relegated, the automatics promotion teams would be the winners of Both the EOSFL and the WOSFL premier leagues, leaving the 2nd placed WOSFL and EOSFL teams playoff  with the 3rd bottom of the LL.  The SOSFL doesn't merit being at this level, (as in standard wise) or put simply, just simply as they are not good enough.

The pyramid needs to be brought in line to be a smooth functioning machine that everyoen sees potential of reaching their level of beyond but knowing their at a level where they can complete.   Both the EOSFL and the WOSFL are nearly sorted with most teams at the level or division they should be and now everyone knows where they stand and what is required if they ant to progress up divisions.
 

What nonsense! If (and I fully accept it's unlikely) a south team wins the play-off they will have fully merited their promotion, and will have proven that they are good enough on the only place it matters - on the pitch. Furthermore, if the east and west clubs didn't want the competition (and frankly I think many don't) they shouldn't have entered into a league whose promotion rules are known in advance. Btw, the best team I've seen Uppers play were Tranent, in a cup tie, who have fully earned their recent promotion, I'm sure you'll agree.

[Bad Wolf]

On 21/06/2022 at 10:09, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I don't think it's  "artificially" high. It's in the position it's always been in. I think the strength of the other two leagues are artificially low. And only once some of the clubs in those leagues who should be playing at a higher level reach it can we give a full assessment of the quality of the SoSFL. I also don't think it complicates the promotion issue. There's one place. The three teams play off. Simple. 

And I don't know why Threave have moved. You'd need to ask Threave. What is good for one club may not be necessarily good for another. So you'd need to ask them as well. However Threave are in a fairly risk free position. If they think they've made a mistake and return to the SoSFL they'll be back in at tier 6. If Kello, for instance, tried the other way round they'd have to come back in at tier 9 with the amateurs and boys clubs.

It would be a slightly specious argument, but we're on P&B so here goes - the SoSL was arguably at Tier 5 for many years, until the Lowland League came along, when it dropped to Tier 6, without a fuss and years of whining. Should a reasonable argument be made for it to drop further, perhaps it will do so with equal, un-Juniorsy, good grace. That argument has yet to be made though.

 

Threave have made a decision for their own benefit, which may well prove to be a mistake, but perhaps not. It's no different to Annan or Dalbeattie moving to the EoSL in the past, except that it muddies the waters in pyramid politics terms I dare say. 

[Burnieman]

1 minute ago, Bad Wolf said:

Should a reasonable argument be made for it to drop further, perhaps it will do so with equal, un-Juniorsy, good grace. That argument has yet to be made though.

 

You've not been paying attention then.