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Tier 7 solution for SOS League


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28 minutes ago, virginton said:

In what way has the SoS held back reform of promotion/relegation? 

I think we're getting somewhat closer to the real motive for all this sudden, shrill hysterics though. West and East clubs are pissed off about the blockage getting into the LL, and so are fantasising that if only the pesky South could be put in its box, then they'd be welcomed with open arms.

A premise that is only one degree less stupid than the one that the LL clubs signed up for to let Colts return. 

I think you need to take a step back, maybe just post on issues you have a slight grasp of.

Edited by Burnieman
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1 minute ago, Burnieman said:

You've ignored the rest of my post.

Because, as often is the case, the rest of your post was the wavering thoughts of someone obsessed with hypothetical scenarios that no-one wants.

I'll repeat again. Just because D&G has its own league at tier 6 doesn't mean other regions want one. 

Just because D&G has a league at tier 6 doesn't mean other regions will get one either.

The pyramid below the Tay has three feeder leagues that cover every single council area. It's complete. It's fine. No-one is wanting or asking for a separate East Lothian league or Inverclyde league.

To refer to further fracturing of the pyramid is a hypothetical nonsense.

Further to that even if (and, again, I stress that it wont happen) but even if there was to be further fracturing at tier six into other regions if that was done with the consent of the clubs and other leagues that still wouldn't be an issue.

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3 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Because, as often is the case, the rest of your post was the wavering thoughts of someone obsessed with hypothetical scenarios that no-one wants.

I'll repeat again. Just because D&G has its own league at tier 6 doesn't mean other regions want one. 

Just because D&G has a league at tier 6 doesn't mean other regions will get one either.

The pyramid below the Tay has three feeder leagues that cover every single council area. It's complete. It's fine. No-one is wanting or asking for a separate East Lothian league or Inverclyde league.

To refer to further fracturing of the pyramid is a hypothetical nonsense.

Further to that even if (and, again, I stress that it wont happen) but even if there was to be further fracturing at tier six into other regions if that was done with the consent of the clubs and other leagues that still wouldn't be an issue.

You introduced hypothetical situations from "other parts of the world", so I'm addressing that in relation of how it compares to Scotland.  You ignore it because it kinda kyboshes your argument.

I agree, further fracturing the pyramid (in line with the rest of the world, and to bring parity with SoS) at tier 6 is nonsense, therefore the SoS should seek a tie-up with one of the two main multi-district leagues.

Edited by Burnieman
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15 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You introduced hypothetical situations from "other parts of the world", so I'm addressing that in relation of how it compares to Scotland.  

You realise the rest of the world isn't hypothetical? It actually exists. I was giving a real world comparison. Not suddenly imagining the breakaway football republic of Clackmannanshire like yourself

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1 minute ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

You realise the rest of the world isn't hypothetical? It actually exists. I was giving a real world comparison. Not suddenly imagining the breakaway football republic of Clackmannanshire like yourself

You gave a "real world comparison", and I used that comparison to illustrate how that would work in Scotland.

It was useful, because it showed that tier 6 in the LL area is a mix of two large multi-district leagues and one small stand alone district league all at the same level. In the "real world" and if starting from scratch, that situation would not have not occurred and all leagues at tier 6 would be of broadly comparable strength with a reasonably equal chance of progression via the PO.

If there is a impending PWG review, that issue really needs reviewed, particularly as the SoS is now losing members to the other leagues.

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25 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You gave a "real world comparison", and I used that comparison to illustrate how that would work in Scotland.

No. I used real world comparisons to show how the current set up isn't that strange. There was nothing hypothetical. There is a  difference in quality and population at a single tier in the pyramid. This is normal. As other leagues show.

You talking about an imaginary East Renfrewshire league demanding parity with the Midland League is nonsensical ravings.

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8 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

No. I used real world comparisons to show how the current set up isn't that strange. There was nothing hypothetical. There is a  difference in quality and population at a single tier in the pyramid. This is normal. As other leagues show.

You talking about an imaginary East Renfrewshire league demanding parity with the Midland League is nonsensical ravings.

You did nothing of the sort.

Why is a district league at tier 6 from D&G any different from having a district league at tier 6 from elsewhere is Scotland? Explain that particular point.

Either tier 6 consists entirely of district leagues (like D&G) or it consists entirely of large multi-district leagues (like WoS or EoS).  That is what would be done if we had a blank sheet of paper. It's sensible.  A mixture of both creates a ridiculous imbalance in quality which is what we currently have.

I'm not the one spouting nonsensical ravings here 🙄

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4 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

You did nothing of the sort.

Why is a district league at tier 6 from D&G any different from having a district league at tier 6 from elsewhere is Scotland? Explain that particular point.

I already have done. Because there structural issues in that region that aren't faced anywhere else in the LL catchment area (Argyll and Bute being the only other exception).

And, as pointed out, other parts of the world make similar allowances to places that face these issues to ensure coverage of the pyramid remains nationwide and without causing an unfair travel schedule to clubs that can't compete in larger areas.

Just because you can't recall my argument, even after replying to it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And, no, there is nothing in the rules, and nothing immoral, about not having even areas of coverage (whether those areas be population, quality or number of teams). The idea that is HAS to be one or the other (district only or large area only) exists only in your head. A mix is fine. It's working. 

And the quality difference is due to the artificially high quality at the top of the EoSFL and WoSFL which was entirely brought on by the majority of the members of those leagues declining the opportunity to move when they could. None of that is the SoSFL's fault. Once the best teams in the West and East go up and the best teams in the South region come down it will even itself out. Just as it will in the North regions.

A refusal to understand and accommodate the structural differences in Scottish regions if wilfully obtuse.

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21 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

I already have done. Because there structural issues in that region that aren't faced anywhere else in the LL catchment area (Argyll and Bute being the only other exception).

And, as pointed out, other parts of the world make similar allowances to places that face these issues to ensure coverage of the pyramid remains nationwide and without causing an unfair travel schedule to clubs that can't compete in larger areas.

Just because you can't recall my argument, even after replying to it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

And, no, there is nothing in the rules, and nothing immoral, about not having even areas of coverage (whether those areas be population, quality or number of teams). The idea that is HAS to be one or the other (district only or large area only) exists only in your head. A mix is fine. It's working. 

And the quality difference is due to the artificially high quality at the top of the EoSFL and WoSFL which was entirely brought on by the majority of the members of those leagues declining the opportunity to move when they could. None of that is the SoSFL's fault. Once the best teams in the West and East go up and the best teams in the South region come down it will even itself out. Just as it will in the North regions.

A refusal to understand and accommodate the structural differences in Scottish regions if wilfully obtuse.

Can you name the other parts of the world where you have already provided "real world" examples of that I clearly missed?

Also, if you had a blank sheet of paper, would you create tier 6 exactly as it is now?

Threave have just left to join WoS (which should provide you with a clue), Kello Rovers have played in it for years, Gretna and Dalbeattie already play in the LL, Stranraer, Annan and QoS play in the SPFL.  They are not some sort of isolated area of the country requiring special treatment, and therefore integrating the remaining SoS clubs into the WoS/EoS befiore it becomes unviable is not a major issue.

It's not working as can clearly be seen with Threave leaving. If it was working, Threave don't leave, and there would be no debate about which league Gretna/Dalbeattie drop into if they're relegated.    It will never "even out" if the SoS remains at tier 6, most realise that.

I'm not the one being obtuse, and it's time to leave you to it as it's clearly a hill you want to die on.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Can you point them out then? So far I think you've just said they exist without specific reference.

 

 

Spain. At the Divisiones Regionales other areas have greater quality than the Balearic Islands or Canary Islands yet the remain at the same level. As well as staying at the same level these leagues are allowed to have a conference set up so there isn't as much inter-island tranvel. Balearic has Mallorca/Menorca/Ibiza & Fuerteventura splits. Canaries have splits with all their islands with play offs at the end and separate systems between the islands but all under the same tier (with some having divisions running into what is lower tiers)

Portugal. Despite the Campeanto de Portugal consistently being won by teams near Lisbon or Porto there is still an even split below it including the island leagues for Madeira and Azores. Despite all but one of the island teams being relegated from the mutli-regional tiers after restructuring there's no clamour to force the island leagues to combine or join mainlain leagues or become feeders to them.

Norway. After the third (or mabe fourth?) tier which are fluid in their geography the levels below have strict regional guidelines to limit travel. The teams in Oslo and the south outnumber and outperform those in the northern regions. No-one's demanding they drop down a tier.

England. A notable example of many is the South West Peninsula league. Clubs in that area would avoid relegation to the Western League 1st Division if they were relegated from the Premier as the travel is seen to difficult without the cost benefit of playing in a higher tier.

Croatia. Their "northern" league when it becomes regionalised has two leagues at the same level whilst others only have one whereas in the south they skip a tier entirely so teams can jump up from the 5th to the 3rd tier as there isn't the quality or number for a level there that plays over a wider area. 

There will be others. Some will even have pyramid systems that will be harmful to rural areas so the argument could come forward saying the opposite at some point I guess. But there's a few. 

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So nothing really close to the South's standing in Scotland.

In most of those examples you've got local council/region/state leagues all treated equally. Now the depth to them might be different, but as a baseline to where they pyramid starts they're on a level playing field. It's from there that the pyramid builds to inter-regional up to national leagues.

For the same to be true in Scotland our amateur leagues would be the baseline.

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3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

For the same to be true in Scotland our amateur leagues would be the baseline.

Nope. What happens is, when it gets to a certain point in the pyramid, the regions are at the same level regardless of the quality of those regions.

Portugal, as an example above, regional leagues (fairly) evenly split regarding population/quality and then, at the level below, split entirely based on region with no question of the quality. There are, literally, hundreds more clubs in Lisbon than Madeira. The first 20 or 30 at that level or below will be better than the best Madeira has at that level. Still the same level despite Lisbon being better, with better clubs, more clubs and a higher population.

Our "even" regional split is at tier 5. Below that then it's up to the individual clubs and leagues how they wish to sort themselves out. So, yup, the WoSFL has better clubs, more clubs and higher population than the South of Scotland because the South (West) of Scotland, as a region, has challenges the (Mid) West of Scotland doesn't.

It doesn't do any harm to Lisbon United to know they are at the same level as Funchal Rovers and it doesn't do any harm to anyone in the other leagues to have Upper Annadale at the same level as Penicuik.

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31 minutes ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Nope.

Portugal is nothing like Scotland. Consider the base line I mentioned as the water line in the Iceberg Theory. All people see is what appears from above the water line and see pretty much a perfect pyramid. Get to the water that's as equal as equal can be. However, what's going on out of sight under the water is a mess of uneven leagues because they don't all have the same depth.

image.png.a509afdf4febd73eb0d266ce538b280b.png

 

This is what people see of Portugal's perfect pyramid. 1-1-2-4

image.thumb.png.209778e307badf7cefae6da20b967890.png

And at the water/base line there's 20 regional leagues all treatly equal to each other. Madeira = Lisbon = Portugal = Azores.

image.thumb.png.8fb1d86281bf24f908701475a87729f0.png

Then you go below water and it starts getting messy.

image.thumb.png.93f1e4dcb18835d44644e16e4b2437e7.png

image.thumb.png.a0242fc4270efb631f898394dcb0eacb.png

At best the South should be regarded in line with the pre-pyramid/pre-superleague era semi-pro leagues of NCL/Highland/Tayside/Fife/Lothians/EoSFL/Central/Ayrshire/SoSFL. Because of Scotland's daft split between non-league seniors/juniors/amateurs those leagues started integrating to form larger inter-leagues and the South remained automonous because of a quirk of history.

The South represents 1/32 council areas. A couple % of the population. Yet has equal standing with 5 other leagues and feeds into "half" the country.

Thankfully most of this is academic. Threave Rovers should become a member of the WoSFL. Gretna 2008 & Dalbettie Star may well be politicking their way to a change of relegation league. The WoSFL bottom tiers will settle and we'll see if any other South sides choose to make a move considering it a better option.

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9 hours ago, Burnieman said:

eh? 🙄

As a response to, "The word 'direct' is therefore completely meaningless. If they had direct promotion into the LL as champions of the South then you'd have a point; but they don't," your "eh?" is somewhat strange.

It's a simple enough point to understand surely? The SoSL does not have automatic promotion to the LL. Its champion still has to win a play-off to get promoted,  hence promotion is not direct.

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1 hour ago, rockson said:

As a response to, "The word 'direct' is therefore completely meaningless. If they had direct promotion into the LL as champions of the South then you'd have a point; but they don't," your "eh?" is somewhat strange.

It's a simple enough point to understand surely? The SoSL does not have automatic promotion to the LL. Its champion still has to win a play-off to get promoted,  hence promotion is not direct.

The post was complete garbage, hence the eh. 

The quote was "The point is of course that Ormiston, Pumpherston, Lugar, Maybole etc aren't sitting in a league at tier 6 with direct entry to a LL PO."

Anyway, this is getting surreal.

Edited by Burnieman
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13 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

We are already at the point where the LL winners are of a higher standard than the HL winners. So, using this argument, why should they be at the same level?

If we go by previous encounters in cup competitions it's not beyond the pale to see the WoSFL Prem is of a better quality than the EoSFL Prem. So let's push them down a tier?

The Midlands, North Region and North Caley aren't anywhere near the level of the WoSFL either. Punt them down a tier?

Your other argument that, maybe, D&G clubs, pushed down a tier, could be allowed to decline promotion? Makes no sense. Clubs with ambition in that league would need to go through a league, detrimental to their own finances, in order to go further in the pyramid or decide to stay where they are. It just creates a glass ceiling.

The only argument I'm hearing about why the SoSFL should be papped down is "but they're not as good". Well, sorry folks, this is how regional leagues in pyramids work all over the world. Some have a higher quality than others at the same tier and the quality between the leagues can wax and wane. 

WoSFL has only, just, managed to finish its first season ever and now their fans want to demote the SoSFL already. Even tho', by their own admission, their own Premier League is, currently, unfairly weighted due to the bottleneck in promotion places.

Perhaps giving the pyramid time, through promotion and relegation, to come to a more naturally weighted quality would allow us a chance to give a fairer comparison of the strength of the leagues.

 

We are already at the point where the LL winners are of a higher standard than the HL winners. So, using this argument, why should they be at the same level?

That has nothing to do with it, total sperate entity to my comments. The Highland League is for the north and the Lowland league is for the south, both at Tier 5. They should work out their sections separately as there is no connection except in playoff

 

If we go by previous encounters in cup competitions it's not beyond the pale to see the WoSFL Prem is of a better quality than the EoSFL Prem. So let's push them down a tier?

Absolutely no chance, cup games BARE no resemblance to Leagues.  Tranent from the EOSFL beat Darvel from the WOSFL but Bonnyrigg the LL champions were pumped by Auchinleck Talbot the WOSFL runners up in the South Challenge cup so that throws your point out.  (The gulf between the EOSFL premier & WOSFL premier to the SOSFL is vast, (I believe, anyone can concur my view or devalue my view) so the SOSFL should be at a lower tier.  The whole point of this post is to make the pyramid easier and less bottleneck and having the SOSFL team in the promotional playoff is wrong as the quality is not there

 

The Midlands, North Region and North Caley aren't anywhere near the level of the WoSFL either. Punt them down a tier?

Again, they are involved in the Highland section so they are not affecting the bottle neck in the Lowland section, so nothing to do with the post

 

Your other argument that, maybe, D&G clubs, pushed down a tier, could be allowed to decline promotion? Makes no sense. Clubs with ambition in that league would need to go through a league, detrimental to their own finances, in order to go further in the pyramid or decide to stay where they are. It just creates a glass ceiling.

There is no arguments, I am merely putting my points across from what I've experienced in playing, coaching, studying, watching at that level.
D&G clubs moving down a level are NOT being declined promotional access, its still there, they just have to work from the level that they should be at.
Also yes someone said, think it was Glensmad, that all clubs sign a charter to try to be promoted, not sure of the actual wording. I'm stating it because some teams in the SOSFL might and I have no prior facts, so might not think moving up a division is beneficial to them continuing if they lose money with a lot of travelling

 

The only argument I'm hearing about why the SoSFL should be papped down is "but they're not as good". Well, sorry folks, this is how regional leagues in pyramids work all over the world. Some have a higher quality than others at the same tier and the quality between the leagues can wax and wane. 

WTF has the world pyramid got to do with it, this is Scotland, different football, different attitudes, different cultures to football, lots of different views of football so the pyramid is independent from others. The Scottish pyramid has to be brought to a level that develops our football all the way to the top, not depriving the system of growth and yes, SOSFL going down at least a level is still growth because they can still climb up from the level they are at if down at tier 7.

 

WoSFL has only, just, managed to finish its first season ever and now their fans want to demote the SoSFL already. Even tho', by their own admission, their own Premier League is, currently, unfairly weighted due to the bottleneck in promotion places.

The WOSFL hasn't just managed to finish its first season, it has finished its first season and personally I think it was a very good one considering all the factors. We ended up having two teams left fighting for the championship and any team out of 10 teams being relegated and even a team relegated on the final whistle of the playoff, so objectively I thought it was great

 

Perhaps giving the pyramid time, through promotion and relegation, to come to a more naturally weighted quality would allow us a chance to give a fairer comparison of the strength of the leagues.

Auch common, I'm all for giving the pyramid time. Christ if you said to me 5 years ago we would have a fully functional pyramid system with any team can go all the way up to the premier league I would have laughed at you but its has, just the bottlenecks at the SPFL 2 and the Lowland league is not helping the speed.
Personally, how can you not see the difference in standard of the SOSFL to the WOSFL and the EOSFL, anyone who says any differently is genuinely not to be taken seriously when making comments about this matter, the standard is way different level

 

I do not think these views because i live in the WOSFL catchment area. I have these views being at plenty of games in the EOS and WOS and quite a few of the SOS in the past 7 years so this is where I get my views and it, well i believe, are objective even though i live in the WOS area.
I've read your post again and genuinely think to myself, why is this guy coming out with this, doesn't he see the standard is way different, doesn't he see the pyramid bottleneck should be made easier to sort.

 

By sort, my view and very strong views is that the Lowland league should have 2 automatic relegation and the 3rd bottom from the lowland should go to a playoff but not with the SOSFL champions as the SOSFL standard is too low, it should be between the EOSFL 2nd best and the WOSFL 2nd best and take it from there with the SOSFL being part of the WOSFL at tier 7.
If, hypothetically the SOSFL were put down a tier, then which side would it join, the WOSFL or the EOSFL. I think it would automatically got to the WOSFL side

 

Edited by Bestsinceslicebread
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