Tier 7 solution for SOS League

[zenon]

I know there has been word that the SOS League wants to move down to tier 7 to better reflect the overall standard of the league, the question is what the solution would be so I thought of this proposal.

Winners of the SOS would choose if they want to be in the WOS Premier or EOS Premier although I would expect the vast majority would choose to go WOS.

[Ginaro]

12 minutes ago, zenon said:

I know there has been word that the SOS League wants to move down to tier 7 to better reflect the overall standard of the league, the question is what the solution would be so I thought of this proposal.

Winners of the SOS would choose if they want to be in the WOS Premier or EOS Premier although I would expect the vast majority would choose to go WOS.

Why on earth would a league of teams in the south west have the choice of playing in the EOS? 

In reality the standard of the SOS is more like a spread from the bottom of tier 7 down to tier 9.

The solution is to remove the SOS from tier 6, then if the clubs want a chance of moving into the WOS setup - have a play-off to get into tier 7 (either 13th bottom, or 3rd top of tier 8).

Edited November 3, 2021 by Ginaro

[zenon]

22 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Why on earth would a league of teams in the south west have the choice of playing in the EOS?

Annan Athletic used to play in the EOS despite being in the SOS catchment area although they did keep their reserve side in the SOS.

[Ginaro]

19 minutes ago, zenon said:

Annan Athletic used to play in the EOS despite being in the SOS catchment area although they did keep their reserve side in the SOS.

That was before there was a senior west league for them to play in. 

They also won it four times and were regularly in the top half of the EOS Premier so were presumably too good for the SOS - none of the current SOS clubs would be good enough for the EOS Premier.

Would be more travel as well since the EOS has expanded to include clubs north of Edinburgh.

[GNU_Linux]

The most sensible & likely agreeable way to integrate the SOS into the WOS if it was to happen would be to have two up from the WOS tier 7 then 1 up from a tier 7 SOS into tier 6. Ofc those numbers may not be fixed due to dynamic relegation being a necessity.

[Ginaro]

15 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

The most sensible & likely agreeable way to integrate the SOS into the WOS if it was to happen would be to have two up from the WOS tier 7 then 1 up from a tier 7 SOS into tier 6. Ofc those numbers may not be fixed due to dynamic relegation being a necessity.

The only way the SOS should be getting into the WOS Premier is via some sort of a play-off. Have 3rd in WOS tier 7 play the SOS champions.

The likes of Threave aren't that much better than Bonnyton (if at all) so they shouldn't be getting promoted without having to at least beat a WOS side to show they are good enough to compete at that level.

[DALE SEC]

Surprised none of the south league teams took a pop at the junior Cup.  Might have met some friends close to the South zone that may have seen the south league as a better way up the pyramid . Not sure if there's any defined border to prohibit any such move .

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, DALE SEC said:

Surprised none of the south league teams took a pop at the junior Cup.  Might have met some friends close to the South zone that may have seen the south league as a better way up the pyramid . Not sure if there's any defined border to prohibit any such move .

Or they could've been drawn against a side from Tayside/North at home and lost money having to pay for their travel guarantee on a small crowd.

Not sure there's any WOS sides who would move to the South, unless you have any in mind?

[DALE SEC]

Heres the theory. Club in West lower tears gets major investor .easy way to move up would be to join South league ( effectively moving up the tiers) therefor avoiding the wait in the west .( I think Kelty Hearts move to the EOS has to be the best bit of timing in scottish football history).. Therefore it might be beneficial for the south league to encourage members to play in junior Cup.

[bluedragon]

Here are some thoughts to add to the discussion.

DO NOTHING

Dumfries & Galloway is the third largest local authority by area in Scotland.  It does not easily fit into the current areas covered by the West of Scotland League (WoSL) or the East of Scotland League (EoSL) and if the South of Scotland League (SoSL) that covers the area was assimilated into either it would significantly increase travelling distances for clubs.

A club in Dumfries & Galloway should still have a direct route to Tier 5 and an ambitious club should not have to move leagues to achieve its ambitions.  It is possible that some clubs relegated from the Lowland League (LL) could choose to be relegated to the SoSL as they perceive it will give them an easier route back. 

Based on current information, the SoSL will only have 3 clubs out of 12 that could qualify for the Lower Pyramid Play-Offs next season.   If one of those three clubs were SoSL champions then the play-off results will decide if they are promoted, i.e. the strongest team will come through and so why worry about the relative strengths of the three LL feeder leagues?

With the WoSL Premier Division clubs rapidly gaining SFA Club Licences it will not be long before it will be at the same level as the EoSL Premier Division and give the two leagues an extremely strong argument for an automatic promotion for the champion of each league. The SoSL position would inevitably be part of that discussion. So why rush to do something about the SoSL situation when there willl be more important issues ahead?

CHANGE THE TIER

The SoSL could drop down to Tier 8, i.e. below the top two divisions of the WoSL and EoSL. 

The WoSL could regionalise its divisions currently at Tiers 8 & 9 into North and East divisions at Tier 8. 

The SoSL would sit alongside them at Tier 8 with the champions playing off against the two WoSL Tier 8 champions for promotion to WoSL Division 1 at Tier 7. 

There would need to be flexibility for WoSL clubs currently at Tiers 8 & 9 in South Ayrshire/ Dumfries & Galloway to allow them to choose to play in either the WoSL or SoSL to see what suits them.

The SOSL champions would need to give up its LL play-off spot as it would not be fair to be seen to “leap frog” WoSL clubs at Tiers 6 & 7.

BECOME PART OF THE WEST OF SCOTLAND LEAGUE

The SoSL clubs could form a Tier 8 South Division sitting alongside North and East Divisions in the WoSL.

There would be one less place in the Lower Pyramid Play-Offs.

There is a risk at this early stage in the Pyramid’s evolution that if we think in terms of strict north/south and east/west boundaries things will be missed. We have seen the flexible, amicable solutions that have needed to be found between the LL & Highland League feeder leagues where clubs are close to the strictly defined LL/Highland League dividing line. 

If the LL feeder leagues divide into east and west then football in the south of Scotland (Dumfries & Galloway and the Borders) risks getting forgotten.  Maybe in the future there is a case for these clubs to play each other in a league/division and so the SoSL must remain to keep options open at this time.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by bluedragon

[vikingTON]

A well-considered layout of options there. The most important thing should be to maintain a regional division rather than dividing the league up to play every jumped-up scheme in Glasgow once a fortnight. That's just not practical given the limitations of transport in Dumfries and Galloway.  Any issue should have been prevented though by simply dinghying Threave's risible application to join the WoS and establish clear boundaries.

Left to its own devices, the South will get stronger over time as clubs inevitably drop out of the LL into its catchment area, while the backlog of teams at the top of the West and East will slowly but surely diminish even with the current promotion system. The South poses no barrier to progression and so shouldn't be touched unless a clear majority of the club's themselves want that change. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by vikingTON

[stanley]

37 minutes ago, virginton said:

A well-considered layout of options there. The most important thing should be to maintain a regional division rather than dividing the league up to play every jumped-up scheme in Glasgow once a fortnight. That's just not practical given the limitations of transport in Dumfries and Galloway.  Any issue should have been prevented though by simply dinghying Threave's risible application to join the WoS and establish clear boundaries.

Left to its own devices, the South will get stronger over time as clubs inevitably drop out of the LL into its catchment area, while the backlog of teams at the top of the West and East will slowly but surely diminish even with the current promotion system. The South poses no barrier to progression and so shouldn't be touched unless a clear majority of the club's themselves want that change. 

I think you're overestimating how much stronger it will become. There are only five teams even in the SoS catchment area in the above leagues: Queen of the South (unlikely to get anywhere near the SoS over the next few years), Stranraer, Annan, Dalbeattie and Gretna. Given that Threave look set to be accepted into the WoS, it is far from certain that those clubs even drop into the SoS. There's no Dumfries & Galloway amateur league below and basically almost no source of new clubs.

If you were to create a pyramid from scratch now, there is absolutely no chance a Dumfries and Galloway League would be near step 6 of the pyramid. They shouldn't remain there indefinitely for historical reasons. If the Lowland League was ever to open up to three relegation spots (which, IMO, it should have), it would be a big barrier if the SoS had one team go up automatically each season.

Edited June 18, 2022 by stanley

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, stanley said:

I think you're overestimating how much stronger it will become. There are only five teams even in the SoS catchment area in the above leagues: Queen of the South (unlikely to get anywhere near the SoS over the next few years), Stranraer, Annan, Dalbeattie and Gretna. Given that Threave look set to be accepted into the WoS, it is far from certain that those clubs even drop into the SoS. 

Two of those five are highly likely to drop into the South in the next decade though, if boundaries were seriously applied instead of the pick and mix nonsense that has been allowed to develop instead. That is significant  strengthening by the South's standards.

Until the LL actually opens up three promotion/relegation spots -not happening anytime soon - then your point about the league is moot. If there are even two promotion spots available and three feeder leagues, then the strongest league champions will always come out on top. And if that happens to include a champion from the South, then they have clearly achieved promotion on merit. 

[stanley]

15 minutes ago, virginton said:

Two of those five are highly likely to drop into the South in the next decade though, if boundaries were seriously applied instead of the pick and mix nonsense that has been allowed to develop instead. That is significant  strengthening by the South's standards.

Until the LL actually opens up three promotion/relegation spots -not happening anytime soon - then your point about the league is moot. If there are even two promotion spots available and three feeder leagues, then the strongest league champions will always come out on top. And if that happens to include a champion from the South, then they have clearly achieved promotion on merit. 

Even if Dalbeattie and Gretna drop into the SoS and the WoS/EoS lose some of their stronger members to the Lowland League over the next few years, there's still going to be a significant gap in standard between the two leagues. A gap which will never close because of the very limited population covered by the SoS.

If, as expected, Threave are accepted into the WoS then the boundaries discussion becomes very relevant as you might well see the likes of Gretna and Dalbeattie choose a different league if/when they are relegated. That would weaken the prospects of the SoS even further and losing Threave is a huge blow already.

[vikingTON]

6 minutes ago, stanley said:

Even if Dalbeattie and Gretna drop into the SoS and the WoS/EoS lose some of their stronger members to the Lowland League over the next few years, there's still going to be a significant gap in standard between the two leagues. A gap which will never close because of the very limited population covered by the SoS.

The gap between Darvel and Saint Cuthbert's wasn't significant in the season just finished, and the removal of souped-up outfits like that will only level the playing field more in the future. 

I wouldn't expect the South's clubs to be yo-yoing back and forth anytime soon, but the idea that Kilwinning, Cumnock or Irvine Meadow XI are somehow too big for South clubs to possibly slay in a triangular play-off format is utter nonsense. 

In any case, dismantling a perfectly well functioning regional league on the grounds of an entirely theoretical problem is really not what constructing a healthy pyramid system should be about. It starts with the South, then it'll be the Highland League/North Caley, and soon enough we will have a 'pyramid' that caters exclusively for Central Belt clubs with either ideas above their station/Walter Mitty owners. 

[vikingTON]

NB: The hostile expansion of the WoS into (and/or above) the South also undermines the prospects of actually completing a viable pyramid. The West still needs to incorporate Argyll and Bute fully within its own remit - trying to put Campbeltown, Lochgilphead, Creetown and Kirkcudbright into the same setup (even under regionalised leagues) will deter entry and quite possibly kill off clubs in the long-term. 

The West should stay in its lane and focus on the task of integrating the areas of its catchment area that weren't Junior in the first place. 

Edited June 18, 2022 by vikingTON

[FairWeatherFan]

20 minutes ago, virginton said:

The gap between Darvel and Saint Cuthbert's wasn't significant in the season just finished, and the removal of souped-up outfits like that will only level the playing field more in the future.

From what's been said St Cuthbert's had built their squad from the Central Belt? Their manager has just taken over at Dalbeattie Star, who have in turn had a clear out of a lot of their local players (6 to Threave, 2 to Gretna 2008) as he plans to build a Central Belt squad again. 

Just because a club is local to an area doesn't mean their team is.

[stanley]

1 hour ago, virginton said:

The gap between Darvel and Saint Cuthbert's wasn't significant in the season just finished, and the removal of souped-up outfits like that will only level the playing field more in the future. 

I wouldn't expect the South's clubs to be yo-yoing back and forth anytime soon, but the idea that Kilwinning, Cumnock or Irvine Meadow XI are somehow too big for South clubs to possibly slay in a triangular play-off format is utter nonsense. 

In any case, dismantling a perfectly well functioning regional league on the grounds of an entirely theoretical problem is really not what constructing a healthy pyramid system should be about. It starts with the South, then it'll be the Highland League/North Caley, and soon enough we will have a 'pyramid' that caters exclusively for Central Belt clubs with either ideas above their station/Walter Mitty owners. 

The gap between the SoS and the WoS is clearly massive. 1 win in 11 matches for SoS sides v others in the South Challenge Cup last season and that was against Bonnyton who were in the SoS not too long ago and were clearly playing miles above their level in the WoS Premier.

The results suggest that only the top two are anywhere near competing with the WoS sides above third division level and one of them has already left the SoS. The SoS has a place in the pyramid but there's absolutely no chance it's at tier 6 in its current form. Right now, it's probably of third/fourth division in the WoS level (even then,  below the top two, not one of the SoS teams was able to beat even the weakest WoS teams). It certainly isn't a perfectly functioning pyramid. If any logic was used in drawing up the pyramid, you wouldn't be putting a Dumfries & Galloway league anywhere above a regional division towards the bottom of the current structure. It's a quirk of history that it happened to have a senior league. We could just as easily be discussing a borders league being at tier 6 had the league structures worked out differently over the years.

 

Bonnyton Thistle 1 -3 St. Cuthbert Wanderers (12 points in 38 games in premier)

Linlithgow Rose 3 - 2 St. Cuthbert Wanderers (very good result against a strong EoS team)

Lochar Thistle 2 - 5 Threave Rovers (both SoS teams)

Threave Rovers 1 - 3 Civil Service Strollers (decent result against a decent Lowland League team)

Abbey Vale 3 - 4 Newmains United (14th/15 in conference)

East Kilbride Thistle 4 - 2 Newton Stewart (11th/15 in conference)

Lesmahagow 6 - 3 (AET) Creetown (13th/16 in conference)

Upper Annandale 0 - 4 Lesmahagow (13th/16 in conference)

Nithsdale Wanders 2 - 7 Hurlford United (WoS premier)

Cambuslang Rangers 7 - 0 Lochmaben (conference winners)

Troon 13 - 0 Mid-Annandale (WoS premier)

Lugar Boswell Thistle 6 - 2 Wigtown & Bladnoch (14th/16 in conference)

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by stanley

[vikingTON]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

From what's been said St Cuthbert's had built their squad from the Central Belt? Their manager has just taken over at Dalbeattie Star, who have in turn had a clear out of a lot of their local players (6 to Threave, 2 to Gretna 2008) as he plans to build a Central Belt squad again. 

Just because a club is local to an area doesn't mean their team is.

What's your point exactly? Brechin and countless other bumpkin outfits recruited from the Central Belt while playing in the SPFL. I'm pretty sure that Queen of the South have trained in Hamilton or similar for at least spells in the recent past. It has no impact on the purpose or function of the South of Scotland league. 

[FairWeatherFan]

35 minutes ago, virginton said:

What's your point exactly? Brechin and countless other bumpkin outfits recruited from the Central Belt while playing in the SPFL. I'm pretty sure that Queen of the South have trained in Hamilton or similar for at least spells in the recent past. It has no impact on the purpose or function of the South of Scotland league. 

We need a local league for local people, except the players. We need them to articificially inflate our standard of football so that we can carry on the pretence we deserve to be at the level we've found ourselves.