Which Clubs in the Lowland League in Five Seasons' Time?

[LongTimeLurker]

32 minutes ago, Dev said:

There is, as pointed out above, the clear potential for clubs from the current LL area being relegated in order that current SPFL2 clubs may pick and choose which Tier 5 league to play in.

For example, a club winning promotion from the WoS/SoS/EoS only to be relegated in future if they end up one position above the relegation place in the LL - i.e. in order to keep the number of teams in the LL at the agreed number according to the LL rules.

Does the SFA even understand the implications of the alleged proposal? Wondering if there's a Constraint of Trade issue there (don't know).

They could run at 16 again by getting shot of the Colts and use the rule that was inserted about the board having the discretion to have up to 18 to accomodate any unexpected extras, but that under most circumstances only delays the problem of extra relegation to the following season.

If all that winds up happening as a worst case scenario is taking Brechin by application to keep the Hampden blazers happy the effect is relatively minor because it could be a while before another Angus club gets relegated. I doubt there would be much of an appetitite elsewhere for crossing the former boundary.

I was surprised the OfficialCathchup twitter account holder did not shoot down the idea that a tier 6 playoff champion could pick and choose where to wind up and would characterize it is as a question that needs to be answered.

The north tier 6 feeders playoff is likely to be won by the Midlands League champion more often than not over the next 5 years or so by clubs that I suspect would prefer the LL to the HL if given a choice so that would be problematic for the LL. Seriously doubt that could be inserted into the LL constitution by diktat from the SFA on the basis of changes to the Club 42 playoff rule but we'll see what unfolds.

Edited November 4, 2021 by LongTimeLurker

[Jack Burton]

The normal number of first team clubs in the LL is 16, and that's still the number now and will be until the rules are changed - if they ever are - to allow additional first teams into the league. No first teams have been kept out of the LL.
I don't care if SPFL "B" teams are added on or not. It was supposed to be for one season only - although no-one seems to believe that!
Why do people on this forum love to beat up young teams of kids i.e. B teams? They aren't responsible for alleged past wrong doings by others. Is it because they cannot reply?

There was 17 teams in the league last season and 18 this season.

Adding the two B teams rather than two tier 6 teams was a ridiculous decision and the LL deserve all the criticism they've got for it.

[Ginaro]

14 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

There was 17 teams in the league last season and 18 this season.

Adding the two B teams rather than two tier 6 teams was a ridiculous decision and the LL deserve all the criticism they've got for it.

The only options were going back to 16 clubs or 18 with the B teams, they were never going to expand to 18 by adding two tier 6 clubs as that would mean extra relegation places to get back to 16 clubs at some point.

This is after all a league which removed its automatic relegation spot between versions 10 and 13 of the rules (i.e. prior to 2019/20), and doesn't look like changing the relegation situation - so much for sticking together and creating a successful pyramid.

[AlanCamelonfan]

3 hours ago, Ginaro said:

The only options were going back to 16 clubs or 18 with the B teams, they were never going to expand to 18 by adding two tier 6 clubs as that would mean extra relegation places to get back to 16 clubs at some point.

This is after all a league which removed its automatic relegation spot between versions 10 and 13 of the rules (i.e. prior to 2019/20), and doesn't look like changing the relegation situation - so much for sticking together and creating a successful pyramid.

Lowland league 2 is only option to increase movement in the pyramid in my opinion 

[LongTimeLurker]

...and may explain why the SoS appear to be talking internally about becoming a tier 7 feeder in future if a recent post in their subforum is to be believed.

[FairWeatherFan]

12 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

...and may explain why the SoS appear to be talking internally about becoming a tier 7 feeder in future if a recent post in their subforum is to be believed.

I wouldn't put much stock in that. It's the usual fantasy pyramid building that likely stems back to the one passing comment on the Catch Up pod that the South are looking to go down a tier in future. Not based on any actual discussions but the consensus from everyone outside the South believe that it will eventually happen.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

On 02/11/2021 at 20:03, invergowrie arab said:

What a brass neck.

"Divided we fall" from the closed shop of uni teams and boys clubs.

"A logical successful pyramid" where B teams are brought in instead of opening up to teams below.

Well well if it isnt the consequences of a corrupt action catching up with those who did it. I for one remain utterly shocked by this outcome. Absolutely f**k all the LL teams who voted for the B teams, im sure the £500 a skull or whatever it was was worth it. 

[Dev]

7 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

They could run at 16 again by getting shot of the Colts and use the rule that was inserted about the board having the discretion to have up to 18 to accomodate any unexpected extras, but that under most circumstances only delays the problem of extra relegation to the following season.

If all that winds up happening as a worst case scenario is taking Brechin by application to keep the Hampden blazers happy the effect is relatively minor because it could be a while before another Angus club gets relegated. I doubt there would be much of an appetitite elsewhere for crossing the former boundary.

I was surprised the OfficialCathchup twitter account holder did not shoot down the idea that a tier 6 playoff champion could pick and choose where to wind up and would characterize it is as a question that needs to be answered.

The north tier 6 feeders playoff is likely to be won by the Midlands League champion more often than not over the next 5 years or so by clubs that I suspect would prefer the LL to the HL if given a choice so that would be problematic for the LL. Seriously doubt that could be inserted into the LL constitution by diktat from the SFA on the basis of changes to the Club 42 playoff rule but we'll see what unfolds.

There would also be knock-on effects at the levels beneath unless each of those Divisions run at one above what they would do otherwise. Not so easy to do further down the pyramid.

[Burnieman]

16 hours ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Lowland league 2 is only option to increase movement in the pyramid in my opinion 

That is a strong possibility, but the only reason for creating this league is to save the arses of the bottom half of the current LL from obscurity for a few more seasons, not really a good enough reason for causing more upheavel in the Pyramid IMO.

[ian44wood]

3 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

That is a strong possibility, but the only reason for creating this league is to save the arses of the bottom half of the current LL from obscurity for a few more seasons, not really a good enough reason for causing more upheavel in the Pyramid IMO.

Nail on the head

Get the LL2 idea to f@ck

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

That is a strong possibility, but the only reason for creating this league is to save the arses of the bottom half of the current LL from obscurity for a few more seasons, not really a good enough reason for causing more upheavel in the Pyramid IMO.

I'm not sure there's the desire for 16+ clubs Tier 6 or below scrambling for a place. The free movement between LL1 and LL2 only works with everyone licenced. While that could be rather orderly in the East, it would be a little mixed in the West. While all that's going on individually, the leagues would have to be negotiating a change to the LL Playoff.

If all that talking is going on. It makes more sense to just increase promotion/relegation between what's already in place.

[AsimButtHitsASix]

See even if, Forfar say, end up being club 42 and nominate the LL as their preferred destination. Do the LL clubs need to accept it or do they get the option of dingying them?

[LongTimeLurker]

Need to accept.

[Burnieman]

2 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I'm not sure there's the desire for 16+ clubs Tier 6 or below scrambling for a place. The free movement between LL1 and LL2 only works with everyone licenced. While that could be rather orderly in the East, it would be a little mixed in the West. While all that's going on individually, the leagues would have to be negotiating a change to the LL Playoff.

If all that talking is going on. It makes more sense to just increase promotion/relegation between what's already in place.

 

It would be sold as "more clubs in the LL", although in reality you're swapping one league (WoS/EoS Premier) for another at the same level.

LL2 potentially only works if it's split LL2 West + LL2 East, which not only moves the WoS and EoS down a tier (will be unpopular with these leagues, understandably), it also moves SoS down (which I guess is one positive from doing it).

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

 

It would be sold as "more clubs in the LL", although in reality you're swapping one league (WoS/EoS Premier) for another at the same level.

LL2 potentially only works if it's split LL2 West + LL2 East, which not only moves the WoS and EoS down a tier (will be unpopular with these leagues, understandably), it also moves SoS down (which I guess is one positive from doing it).

However they do it there will be so many left behind it won't be blindly accepted.

And if you do open it up and there's no longer a HL/LL boundary. If i'm in the Midlands League, and still interested in going South, i'd be making noises to be included.

 

[boheesian]

On 02/11/2021 at 19:25, craigkillie said:

On 02/11/2021 at 16:45, Footballfirst said:

 

Laughing at these guys pretending this was an unexpected event totally outwith the Lowland League's control, rather than the natural consequence of an awful decision by the Lowland League clubs that they were the primary cheerleaders for.

It’s all about the blazers and their 15 minutes of fame. There are I’m sure a lot of very capable administrators in the game but they get trampled on by the “jobs for the boys” lot.

Scottish football need a complete restructure from top to bottom.

What are the LL going to spend their £50,000 gift token on? If they have they received it.

[superbigal]

Any chance of Lochee Utd winning the North playoffs and assuming licensed then requesting entry to the LL instead of HL ?

[LongTimeLurker]

Hasn't been definitively ruled out yet by anyone who is in the loop on what is happening, but difficult to see how you can insert that into the LL constitution based on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule that only addresses relegation from tier 4 down to tier 5.

[Burnieman]

18 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

However they do it there will be so many left behind it won't be blindly accepted.

And if you do open it up and there's no longer a HL/LL boundary. If i'm in the Midlands League, and still interested in going South, i'd be making noises to be included.

They might not do it at all, as has been said the easiest thing to do is just increase the relegation spots to (99%) guarantee that the WoS and EoS Champions are promoted each season at the very least.  However, turkeys don't vote for Xmas.

The other issue here is that the SFA expect the LL to go back to 16 clubs, whilst at the same time happy for the HL to have 18-20.  If the LL went to 18 (forget about Colts for a moment), then they could open up 3 relegation spots.

[Dev]

5 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Hasn't been definitively ruled out yet by anyone who is in the loop on what is happening, but difficult to see how you can insert that into the LL constitution based on a change to the Club 42 playoff rule that only addresses relegation from tier 4 down to tier 5.

I wonder if it would be possible kick out a club after one season. Also, if a former SPFL club from north of the current HL/LL boundary gets relegated to Tier 6 which league would it go down to? Surely the EoS wouldn't accept an Angus club?