Motherwell v St Mirren 27/10/21

[beesher]

What a mad game that was. Some awful refereeing calls but that doesn't hide the fact that we were dire for about 80 minutes of the game.

As others have said we are so bad to watch. I can just about live with that when we are getting results but when things go wrong it means the fans are pretty unforgiving (and rightly so IMO). 

If I need to watch Liam Grimshaw playing in midfield for the rest of the season I'm going to need therapy. Goss is an empty shirt. Shields looks so far off this level of football it's frightening. Too many of our players of incapable of doing basic stuff like tracking runners or playing a simple 5 yard pass (in particular club captain and scotland international Stephen O'Donnell). Nathan McGinley got some stick last night from the Hunter crowd but he was far from the worst offender.

Then there's the manager. Mugabi and Van Veen dropped (which can't have been based on their performance at Tannadice otherwise McGinley, Grimshaw and Goss would also have been benched). The substitutes were overly negative again, and bringing Carroll on for Slattery was an absolutely shite call when we needed another goal and the 2 forwards still on the park were absolutely burst.

If the price of the 'success' of being in the top 6 is having to watch this every week, I think I'd rather be in a relegation scrap. (not really)

 

[Mr Hahn]

Certainly feel like I'm into the post-covid era of football now. Canni just turn the stream off and do something else if bad things are happening, back to leaving the ground fuming and having the long car journey home in pishing rain to sulk about it .

Having slept on it and seen some of the major incidents back now, referees obviously have a difficult job and we should generally be sympathetic to that, they make mistakes which happens. I think what winds fans up is when a ref makes a decision where there's no possible way he can be sure. So using last night as an example:

• The St Mirren penalty, most of us seem to agree, isn't a penalty. To me it looks like a standard incident you'd see in a game where the ref just gives a hand gesture to say either "get back up" or crosses his arms to say "not enough". However, that to me is an understandable mistake. If seen in real time, I can see how the ref could give a penalty there.
• The opposite of that is the retake. We've all got freeze frames and slow replays and still can't be 100% sure Kelly left his line. To me it looks like he's on it (just) but appreciate I've got bias. But the point is, if we can't be sure, how on earth could they give that decision at the time? It's so close to the line, it's almost impossible for them to say that he's off it. 

At such an important point in the game, I think that was a ludicrous call to make. 

This is to take nothing away from St Mirren btw who I thought looked pretty good and fully merited at least a point and really should have had all three.

On us, that first half was boggin' stuff. Our midfield is horrendous and nothing was clicking. There seems a real lack of movement and interplay between them and I noticed last night, we lose the ball all the time from our own set pieces like throw ins and even free kicks. We seem to have such a rigidity in the midfield that we have no ability to move to keep the ball. 

Where would we be this season without Tony Watt?! I'd give him and Kelly top marks for last night, Shields and Solholm can have pass marks.

[Doakes]

100% shouldn't have been a retake but I will take it

Motherwell seem to be lacking in the middle of the park, we dominated the midfield for most of the game

That save from Kelly at the end was legitimately world class, if that was in the EPL they'd be showing it on loop

If Goodwin can find a way to eradicate these 5 minute spells of madness we'll have a pretty good season

 

[Coventry Saint]

2 minutes ago, Doakes said:

If Goodwin can find a way to eradicate these 5 minute spells of madness we'll have a pretty good season

Interesting that Goodwin namechecked Ryan Flynn when analysing the Tony Watt header, in the context of the defence being slightly all at sea. I for one would like to see Flynn get more game time and it's understandable that he might have been at fault in what is clearly a difficult system for the players to get used to playing (albeit an effective one when it works well).

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Having now fully seen the highlights back, what is Mugabi doing for their first goal?

McGinley clearly has the right winger, Johansen clearly is marking Main, yet there's a good 30 yards between Johansen and Mugabi which Brophy is just given the freedom to run in behind. Even if he wasn't marking Brophy in the first place, he should still be far tighter to Johansen for cover. Can't remember if it was the first or the second goal, but the move for one of their goals started with him putting our corner out for a shy at the halfway line. 

[meadowroadsaint]

I’ll be surprised if we see another penalty retake this season unless it’s blatantly obvious( unlike last night) 

Maybe one of Bobby Maddens Referee mates will do one similar to take the heat off him……

Can you imagine this happening against one of “Those Two”…….

Me neither.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Unbelievably pissed off about the award of the penalty and the retake.

However, the bottom line is that we weren't good enough on the night. Kelly's two big saves late on were testament to that.

I see Alexander said that "things conspired against us", don't get me wrong, they kinda did, but I really hope that's not the rhetoric he's going for with the players because we need to massively improve if we're to get anything from this run of fixtures coming up.

Alexander's defensive subs have worked for us in the past but last night they absolutely baffled me. O'Hara for Woolery in the 65 minute just shifts the mindset to being defensive for 25 minutes. Don't get me started on bringing on Carroll for Slattery when we didn't even have a lead to protect. One of the most baffling subsitutions there has ever been.

Our midfield continues to be a massive concern. Goss doesn't do enough and Grimshaw's technical ability massively impedes us. Sadly Donnelly doesn't seem to be fit and I don't think there is great margin for improvement by bringing Maguire or O'Hara in.

In fairness to Alexander in terms of the "things conspired against us" patter his post-match on the club YouTube highlighted that we "weren't good enough" and were fortunate to be going in level at half time. It was very much the opposite of his "we were the better team" chat after the United game. You can litigate the rights and wrongs of either position he's taken but I didn't listen to his interview last night and get the impression he was happy with how we played albeit he seemed chuffed we came out in the 2nd half and went 2-0 up.

Equally, the penalty stuff feels like a separate discussion as it's had a direct impact on how things panned out.

He's every right to be absolutely fucking seething about the penalty a) being awarded and b) having to be re-taken as the award itself is dubious at best and the re-take is not only a fucking nonsense it's demonstrably wrong. No matter which way you slice it, it's a decision that has had a material impact on the result.

It's weird. In the opening run of games up to the point Alexander got manager of the month it felt like we had an idea of what we were. Perhaps not particularly aesthetically pleasing but working towards an identity where we were efficient offensively and defensively. The run of games since then feels like trying to get to grips with the squad and it's all become a bit of a mess in doing so.

Tbh, if you'd have offered me a point before the game I'd probably have taken it just to stop the rot but over the piece with the way it went down it just feels like a massive kick in the nuts.

Edited October 28, 2021 by capt_oats

[Ric]

Madden is know for being a stickler for rules, remember a season or two back when some rule about time wasting came in and he started yellow carding goal keepers in the 40th minute and no other referee did while it turned out there was a change in those rules and Madden was just applying a very literal take. After about 2 games of him doing this, clearly someone in the SFA told him to calm the f**k down and he stopped booking people for it.

I'm still not convinced by the retake I have to say, I mean off the line, yes, different to when Alnwick tries to save Watts? Not really. It certainly was a penalty though.

The frustrating thing, as with most Saints fans, is we didn't need to f**k ourselves over for that 10-15 minute spell in the 2nd half. Not doing that and all 3 points were coming our way.

[capt_oats]

6 minutes ago, Ric said:

I'm still not convinced by the retake I have to say, I mean off the line, yes, different to when Alnwick tries to save Watts? Not really. It certainly was a penalty though.

He's not off his line. There are clear images that his right foot is planted on the line when the ball is struck.

It's not even something that's "open to interpretation". Madden and his assistant completely fucked it.

Edited October 28, 2021 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

From my angle in the East it looked like SOD had wrestled Brophy to the ground and essentially pinned him by the throat. With that said, afterwards it looked like Brophy was smirking and apologising to him as if was him that had got away with one, so I could be wrong.

[Ric]

5 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

He's not off his line. There are clear images that his right foot is planted on the line when the ball is struck.

It's not even something that's "open to interpretation". Madden and his assistant completely fucked it.

By "off the line" I mean part of his body was off the line, namely his right foot. If you look at Rule 14, it states keepers can't move until the ball is kicked. Kelly moved.

I still think a retake is harsh. Brophy should have scored the first time.

2 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

From my angle in the East it looked like SOD had wrestled Brophy to the ground and essentially pinned him by the throat. With that said, afterwards it looked like Brophy was smirking and apologising to him as if was him that had got away with one, so I could be wrong.

From the video, which actually shows a good angle unlike Beaton's Rangers "penalty" you can see Brophy slips the ball past the defender before the contact. I appreciate that the momentum of Brophy was always going to make it difficult for him to get round the player to continue the move, but the defender equally knows the situation and to push into Brophy was daft.

Soft, yes, contentious? Not really.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Ric

[thisGRAEME]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Alexander's defensive subs have worked for us in the past but last night they absolutely baffled me. O'Hara for Woolery in the 65 minute just shifts the mindset to being defensive for 25 minutes. Don't get me started on bringing on Carroll for Slattery when we didn't even have a lead to protect. One of the most baffling subsitutions there has ever been.

I thought Woolery had one of his best games for us last night tbh. Even when we were struggling I thought he'd been keen and good throughout the game. While Watt and Shields hadn't got much change out of the St. Mirren defence, he'd been contesting well. O'Hara on for him was Fraser Kerr at right wing levels of wrong.

ETA: It's not even like we were particularly struggling on the right hand side, then conceded twice down our left. 

Edited October 28, 2021 by thisGRAEME
Don't know what right and left are.

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

Madden also booked Trevor Carson last season for the six-second rule. I don't think I've ever seen it penalised before or since.

A stickler for the rules when it involves Motherwell it would seem 

[Ric]

Just now, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

Madden also booked Trevor Carson last season for the six-second rule. I don't think I've ever seen it penalised before or since.

A stickler for the rules when it involves Motherwell it would seem 

That's what I was referring to in one of my previous posts, I'd forgotten who he'd carded but knew it was at least one goalkeeper.

It wasn't to do with the six second rule as, afaik, that's no longer part of the game and what replaced it was what Madden was using to judge whether it was a bookable offence.

[houston_bud]

21 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

He's not off his line. There are clear images that his right foot is planted on the line when the ball is struck.

It's not even something that's "open to interpretation". Madden and his assistant completely fucked it.

I'm with you that I don't think it should have been retaken, but your pictures aren't cast iron proof here. The first is inconclusive wither his right foot is touching the line or not (I'll grant you it appears that way) and in the second picture Brophy hasn't struck the ball yet.

I've got a feeling we'll see more decisions like this as it's being tightened up on. It makes it much harder for the keeper, which I don't think is a good thing.

[Ron Aldo]

I'd always assumed that debating a still image of a dodgy decision only happened in games involving Rangers or Celtic.

But aye, Kelly was on his line and Madden is a baldy fud.

[MP_MFC]

Madden is also the ref who gave something ridiculous like 3 penalties in the first round of betfred games back when the new shirt pulling law came into place maybe around 2014? Fairly sure it was Killie v Falkirk.

The rule was dumped thereafter.

He’s a fanny with being a stickler to these types of rules, but part of me wonders if he does it to make a point to someone higher up. In his defence last night, it wasn’t him who ordered the retake, he has to go with what the linesman said.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

1 hour ago, Ric said:

From the video, which actually shows a good angle unlike Beaton's Rangers "penalty" you can see Brophy slips the ball past the defender before the contact. I appreciate that the momentum of Brophy was always going to make it difficult for him to get round the player to continue the move, but the defender equally knows the situation and to push into Brophy was daft.

Soft, yes, contentious? Not really.

I was talking about the free kick a few minutes from the end.

[capt_oats]

50 minutes ago, houston_bud said:

I'm with you that I don't think it should have been retaken, but your pictures aren't cast iron proof here. The first is inconclusive wither his right foot is touching the line or not (I'll grant you it appears that way) and in the second picture Brophy hasn't struck the ball yet.

I've got a feeling we'll see more decisions like this as it's being tightened up on. It makes it much harder for the keeper, which I don't think is a good thing.

Yeah, I'd agree with you if it was just one image (actual lies, I wouldn't) and it's really a fucking tedious discussion that doesn't change anything but with the first image the ball has been struck, the 2nd his right foot is on the line.

There will be a fraction of a second between the two images and the position of his right foot has barely changed (it's flat on the ground in both).

Edited October 28, 2021 by capt_oats

[Shuggie_Murray7]

2 hours ago, Archie McSquackle said:

So you've watched Sportscene but don't accept the freeze frame shows his heel on the line and you think Kelly is clearly off his line?

I don't think the freeze frame proves anything TBH. It was a shot looking head on at Kelly. It's hard to actually see if his heel is actually touching the line or not.

The image posted earlier in the thread from behind the goal, looks far more like he is just about touching the line than anything shown on Sportscene.

If I was a Well fan I'd be far more raging about the initial penalty award than I would be the re-take.