SFA's Reclassification of Unofficial Internationals

[HibeeJibee]

I noticed that in order to present Alex Ferguson with a cap during Scotland v Israel on Saturday the SFA has reclassified various 'unofficial internationals' undertaken by Scotland XI and understrength touring squads as retrospectively being 'full internationals'.

Fergie previously had no caps: but that has seemingly jumped to 5 as games on 1967 tour against Israel, Australia x3 and the Canadian Amateurs have now been reclassified as full internationals. At the time this tour was explicitly billed as not being full squad - no players from Celtic, Rangers, Kilmarnock, Leeds, Aberdeen, Dundee, Dundee United, Hibs, Chelsea, Stoke, Sunderland or Wolves were available due to European ties and United Soccer Association competition; just Jim McCalliog travelled from the previous home internationals match.

Is it known precisely what unofficial games have been reclassified? Clearly it could affect many records, first & lasts, 25/50 cap Roll of Honour

e.g. finished Canadian Amateurs 2-7 Scotland XI... Harper of lower-league Huddersfield scored 5.

Is it just games v 'nations' or also v British Army, v Scottish League etc.?

Edited October 13, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[craigkillie]

It appears as though there have been 5 games reclassified - one in Israel, three in Australia and one in Canada. The rest of the tour remains unofficial.

There were players from Rangers and Killie involved - Andy Penman from the former and Jackie McGrory and Tommy McLean from the latter.

The only player to go above 25 caps as a result was Willie Morgan, the rest all had a small number.

There were 6 new Scotland internationals created; Harry Thomson, Alan Anderson, Alex Ferguson, Harry Hood, Jim Townsend and Hugh Tinney.

[HibeeJibee]

53 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

Canadian Amateurs 2-7 Scotland XI... Harper of lower-league Huddersfield scored 5.

This seemingly becomes highest-scoring away win since 1949... equals Hughie Gallacher's record of scoring 5*... scrubs Billy Steel, Denis Law and Colin Stein's joint post-war record of 4.

*it is actually disputed whether Gallacher or Alex James scored a particular goal v Northern Ireland in 1929 and accordingly Harper might arguably become the first-ever Scot to score 5 in a single game

 

13 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

It appears as though there have been 5 games reclassified - one in Israel, three in Australia and one in Canada.

Do you mean 5 from among that tour in 1967, together with others from different tours/etc. - or just those 5 from among all unofficial internationals ever?

If latter... why would they reclassify just those 5 matches - including game Canada themself don't recognise - but not any more from similar tours or arguably more credible 'one-off' games? (At least... why other than to lift Alex Ferguson onto 5 caps from none for a photo op!).

Edited October 13, 2021 by HibeeJibee

[craigkillie]

The suggestion is that those were the only games - I haven't seen any others mentioned. Ferguson only ended up with 4 incidentally, he missed one of the games.

[HibeeJibee]

23 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The suggestion is that those were the only games - I haven't seen any others mentioned. Ferguson only ended up with 4 incidentally, he missed one of the games.

If so that means fewer records and careers will need rewritten... but makes the whole idea all the more bizarre (nevermind including a game Canada themself labels an amateur international).

There was another tour in 1949 and several pre-war. Plus various full-strength games with far better claims - e.g. friendlies v England in 1902, 1935, 1946 and numerous war internationals.

[GordonD]

Reminds me of this:

 

[JamesM82]

Classifying the Australia and Israel games as full internationals is fair enough, even if it was just a wheeze to give Fergie a cap, because the Australians and Israelis themselves have counted them as such for a while (always?). The strange one is the game in Canada because it was against an "Olympic team", not their full side. 

[HibeeJibee]

1 hour ago, JamesM82 said:

Classifying the Australia and Israel games as full internationals is fair enough, even if it was just a wheeze to give Fergie a cap, because the Australians and Israelis themselves have counted them as such for a while (always?). The strange one is the game in Canada because it was against an "Olympic team", not their full side. 

PR stunt or otherwise, for me you shouldn't go back and rewrite history - particularly when it was explicitly known at the time this tour was not by the full squad and wouldn't be regarded as full internationals (there is no chance Ferguson ever felt he was capped for Scotland in the true sense and I wonder if his feeling on Saturday wasn't bemusement as much as pride). Nevertheless as you say, a case could be made for those 4 games, as they were against full opponents who awarded their own caps.

However it seems inexplicable to include the game against Canadian Amateurs. If including the Israel and Australia games it also seems odd to exclude the match against Hong Kong, who were a full-blown international side (infact they'd reached last 4 of the most recent Asian Cup held in Israel). Having reclassified these games from 1967 it also seems inexplicable not to do the same for others played on different tours... actually with far stronger squads. For example games against United States in 1935 x2 then 1949 where they have subsequently awarded their own caps. These have stronger claims than the 1967 tour.

There were also friendlies against England and Ireland in 1902 (for the Ibrox disaster); against England in 1935 (for the King's jubilee); and against England in 1946 (for the return of peacetime and the Burden Park disaster); played by full-strength sides. They were not regarded as full internationals solely due to a convention that said matches between the home nations only counted if within the Home Championship. These are 'bona fide' full internationals with far stronger claims than the tours.

[HibeeJibee]

There was an interesting feature article on this from Alan Pattullo in yesterday's paper.

Startlingly - and rather confirming the suspicion it was a stunt to get Ferguson a cap and a photocall - the SFA hasn't even informed the other players involved yet.

In a couple of cases the journalist himself broke the news that they were now Scotland internationals after contacting them to ask how they felt about now being Scotland internationals.

[Skyline Drifter]

1 hour ago, HibeeJibee said:

There was an interesting feature article on this from Alan Pattullo in yesterday's paper.

Startlingly - and rather confirming the suspicion it was a stunt to get Ferguson a cap and a photocall - the SFA hasn't even informed the other players involved yet.

In a couple of cases the journalist himself broke the news that they were now Scotland internationals after contacting them to ask how they felt about now being Scotland internationals.

Really? Poor from the SFA that. It always had the look of a Fergie based stunt to be honest but they're not even pretending otherwise if they haven't told the other players.

[craigkillie]

They put something like 5 of the names on their website, but not a full set. I'd assumed the rest were maybe ones that had died, but obviously not.

[Skyline Drifter]

56 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

They put something like 5 of the names on their website, but not a full set. I'd assumed the rest were maybe ones that had died, but obviously not.

I've not looked but would it not be that the "five" are those who didn't otherwise get a cap with the rest being players who got caps anyway at other times.

[craigkillie]

As far as I could tell, there were 6 new internationals - Harry Thomson, Alan Anderson, Alex Ferguson, Harry Hood, Jim Townsend and Hugh Tinney.

The SFA statement mentioned Ferguson, Anderson and Hood, as well as David Holt, who had been recognised as an international but hadn't received an actual physical cap previously.

[HibeeJibee]

There is a 2-page article on the subject in this quarter's Scottish Football Historian. Turns out that as well as adding these 5 new games - 3 others were deleted. That fact doesn't appear to have been publicised at all.

So friendlies v Belgium and Switzerland in 1945-46, and v Hong Kong League XI in 2001-02, were official internationals until now... but have been obliterated from the records.


However it has been consciously decided not to reinstate the Home Nations game v England in 1902 (Ibrox Disaster), even though it was official at the time. Similarly no mention of other unofficial internationals being recognised e.g. v England in 1935 or 1946.

It appears abandoned friendlies v Austria in 1963 and v Spain in 2004 remain recognised.

Deleting that Reunification Cup game in 2002 seems especially odd when they've simaltaneously added game v Canadian Olympic Amateurs in 1967.


Some consequences of obliterating that game in Hong Kong:
* Warren Cummings is no longer an international
* Scot Gemmill no longer has an international goal
* Kevin Kyle no longer has an international goal
* Paul Gallacher's international debut did not come until a friendly v Canada
* Steven Thompson's debut international goal did not come until a friendly v Canada
* Graham Alexander did not reach 40 caps; Scott Severin did not reach 15 caps; Robbie Stockdale did not reach 5 caps

Looking at those games shortly after the war Clyde legend Jimmy Campbell is no longer an international, countering the addition of Harry Hood in 1967. Aberdeen (Archie Baird), St Mirren (John Deakin), Partick (Jimmy McGowan) and Hearts (Jimmy Walker) also lose internationalists.


All these adjustments will no doubt also affect many players records, career totals and thresholds as well as landmark games etc.

Indeed the article concludes:

"Football historians who relied on Raffery's Centenary History, Lamming's Who's Who, the much more rigorous Complete Record, and the Wee Red Book will have to find another source for their Scotland facts and figures from 803 officially verified matches".

Edited January 12, 2022 by HibeeJibee

[John Lambies Doos]

Giving Fergie a cap was just desperate

[craigkillie]

That Hong Kong XI game clearly shouldn't have been a full international in the first place given that it was against a league select of mixed nationalities. We even had a Scottish guy playing against us.

[HibeeJibee]

4 hours ago, craigkillie said:

That Hong Kong XI game clearly shouldn't have been a full international in the first place given that it was against a league select of mixed nationalities. We even had a Scottish guy playing against us.

Very valid point - IIRC justification at time was it'd be strange to play 2 games in friendly cup group with 1 counting (v South Africa) but 1 not.

To cut it while adding Canadian Ams in 1967 is just odd, though.

[Clown Job]

7 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

* Warren Cummings is no longer an international
 

Every cloud….

[MeadowArab]

That Hong Kong XI game clearly shouldn't have been a full international in the first place given that it was against a league select of mixed nationalities. We even had a Scottish guy playing against us.

Who was the Scottish guy playing against us?

[craigkillie]

The match report from the BBC suggests there was an ex-Dundee midfielder playing, Gary McKeown or something like that.