VAR in Scottish Football

[AJF]

29 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

You know you can have correct things and enjoy it as well,  

But that was my point - I don’t think anyone can genuinely say they prefer football more now than they did pre-VAR. 

If they do, as I mentioned before, they prioritise things being right over maximising enjoyment.

And any notion that VAR will become problem free to the extent football is as enjoyable as it was pre-VAR is extreme wishful thinking, IMO.

Edited March 22, 2023 by AJF

[kingjoey]

1 hour ago, Merkland Red said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/65040042

Tam Cowan method of VAR. 

[SJFCtheTeamForMe]

47 minutes ago, AJF said:

But that was my point - I don’t think anyone can genuinely say they prefer football more now than they did pre-VAR. 

If they do, as I mentioned before, they prioritise things being right over maximising enjoyment.

And any notion that VAR will become problem free to the extent football is as enjoyable as it was pre-VAR is extreme wishful thinking, IMO.

There's always going to be someone who'll argue they enjoy it more but they'd most definitely be talking shite.

[54_and_counting]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

Patronising pish. 

Its not really, fans only hate the officials pre VAR when decisions went against them, its the fickle nature of sport and football especially, 

If they brought in actual robots who followed the rules to the letter, absolutely no wavering, no bias, everything on the money, fans would moan that the c***s who programmed the robots were fucking cheats the minute one decision doesn't go their way even if its right

Look at the motherwell game on sat, ive seen both sets of fans claim their goal is onside while the opposition one is off lol

No game of football is ever going to have 100% correct decisions, if VAR can help spot some of the bigger mistakes then surely its better for the game overall 

We just need better officials on it, the two incidents VAR fucked at the weekend isn't the tech its the clowns using it

[54_and_counting]

1 hour ago, SJFCtheTeamForMe said:

There's always going to be someone who'll argue they enjoy it more but they'd most definitely be talking shite.

Plenty fans will enjoy their team having more correct decisions, 

The celtic v hibs game, VAR was called into play 3 times, 3 times it got the correct decision to the point it fixed two on field wrong decisions made by the ref

There will be times it fucks it, or should i say the official using it fucks it, but the system itself is still much better now than it was pre VAR where a ref and linesman missed clear fouls (like the hibs penalty) 

[54_and_counting]

2 hours ago, AJF said:

But that was my point - I don’t think anyone can genuinely say they prefer football more now than they did pre-VAR. 

If they do, as I mentioned before, they prioritise things being right over maximising enjoyment.

And any notion that VAR will become problem free to the extent football is as enjoyable as it was pre-VAR is extreme wishful thinking, IMO.

And what part of VAR stopped you enjoying our win on sat there? It checked one goal which was given and we won a difficult game 4-2

If you say you came away from that game not enjoying it because you had to wait a bit for it to award cantwells goal then i call pish on that

[Donathan]

2 hours ago, AJF said:

But that was my point - I don’t think anyone can genuinely say they prefer football more now than they did pre-VAR. 

If they do, as I mentioned before, they prioritise things being right over maximising enjoyment.

And any notion that VAR will become problem free to the extent football is as enjoyable as it was pre-VAR is extreme wishful thinking, IMO.

Disagree with this.

 

Pre VAR, bad refereeing decisions were my number one gripe with football. 
 

I’m happy to slow down the game by a minute or two to give the referee both the benefit of TV replays and the assistance of the VAR official. 
 

I would certainly prefer to hear the conversations though like we do in rugby. 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Donathan

[Dons_1988]

7 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

Its not really, fans only hate the officials pre VAR when decisions went against them, its the fickle nature of sport and football especially, 

If they brought in actual robots who followed the rules to the letter, absolutely no wavering, no bias, everything on the money, fans would moan that the c***s who programmed the robots were fucking cheats the minute one decision doesn't go their way even if its right

Look at the motherwell game on sat, ive seen both sets of fans claim their goal is onside while the opposition one is off lol

No game of football is ever going to have 100% correct decisions, if VAR can help spot some of the bigger mistakes then surely its better for the game overall 

We just need better officials on it, the two incidents VAR fucked at the weekend isn't the tech its the clowns using it

The reasons people dislike VAR have been set out in this thread over and over again by multiple different posters. 

Saying that ‘fans just don’t like decisions against them’ is reductive pish. It’s simply not true but it seems like an easy way out for folk who argue for it. 

[Donathan]

9 hours ago, craigkillie said:

With any review based system in any sport I've seen it used in, if your review is successful then you get to keep it. So you have two reviews, for example, and you would only lose one if you reviewed something incorrectly.

In the American Football NFL, each team has 2 challenges per game and only gets a 3rd if BOTH of the first 2 are successful (and in any case, cannot get more than 3).

 

Having said that, they’re rarely used at all because certain key situations are automatically reviewed by their version of the VAR without the team having to challenge. 

[Donathan]

4 hours ago, AJF said:

If you prefer football since VAR has been introduced then for those in that camp, the need for things to be right outweighs the need to enjoy yourself.

I have been firmly against VAR from the outset. This was based on my experience of us using it in the Europa League prior to it's introduction in Scotland where I could tell I was far happier with no VAR (and accepting the potential for a higher number of officiating errors) if it meant my matchday experience wasn't impacted negatively.

We are seeing arguments where we are being told the football-watching population needs to adjust their behaviour to accommodate VAR. Why? If anyone is of the opinion that fan experience comes second to the necessity to get everything right, then I fear they are out of touch with the sport and effectively share the thoughts of many club owners who view fans as nothing more than an income.

And for those that believe we will be better off if VAR "teething issues" are sorted out, then I regret to inform you - these issues will not disappear.

For me, the single biggest thing that reduces my enjoyment of football is a feeling that my team has been unfairly treated by the referee.

 

For that reason, VAR is an absolute must. Having said that, I would welcome any measures to improve the experience of VAR for fans.
 

Firstly, every stadium that uses it should have a screen where replays are shown to the crowd as they’re checked by the officials. If a goal is being checked for offside or a foul in the build up, the replay should be shown to the fans in the ground so that they understand what is going on.

 

Secondly, the referee should be mic’d up and the conversation between the on field ref and the VAR official should be available to fans both watching on TV and those in the stadium (I’m not sure whether this would be over the tannoy or with a little headphone like they give you at the snooker)

 

Thirdly, I’d welcome any steps to speed up VAR reviews. My pet peeve is when the ref spends minutes with his hand to his ear waiting for the VAR official to send him over to the monitor, then runs he has to go and check it himself. For anything but the most obvious decisions, the ref should be going straight to the monitor.
 

I also think once the ref is at the monitor it should be time limited to 45-60 seconds. If no clear and obvious error is identified in that time then the on field decision should stand.

 

Fourthly, technology should be used to automate offside decisions like it was at the World Cup. There’s absolutely no reason for humans to be drawing lines on a screen manually in this day and age. Not only is it prone to human error, but it’s a complete waste of time. 

[54_and_counting]

18 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

The reasons people dislike VAR have been set out in this thread over and over again by multiple different posters. 

Saying that ‘fans just don’t like decisions against them’ is reductive pish. It’s simply not true but it seems like an easy way out for folk who argue for it. 

A lot of the dislike it mixing up VAR with the clowns that use it, VAR itself is a good step forward, just needs better operators

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

A lot of the dislike it mixing up VAR with the clowns that use it, VAR itself is a good step forward, just needs better operators

We’ll leave it there because I honestly couldn’t disagree more strongly. But it’s all in the previous pages. 

[AJF]

32 minutes ago, 54_and_counting said:

A lot of the dislike it mixing up VAR with the clowns that use it, VAR itself is a good step forward, just needs better operators

VAR is literally the “clowns” using tools to review a decision. It’s called video assistant referee, as in, it’s just a human referee having a second look at something with different angles. VAR is not separate from referees, they are one and the same.

[AJF]

36 minutes ago, Donathan said:

For me, the single biggest thing that reduces my enjoyment of football is a feeling that my team has been unfairly treated by the referee.

 

For that reason, VAR is an absolute must. Having said that, I would welcome any measures to improve the experience of VAR for fans.
 

Firstly, every stadium that uses it should have a screen where replays are shown to the crowd as they’re checked by the officials. If a goal is being checked for offside or a foul in the build up, the replay should be shown to the fans in the ground so that they understand what is going on.

 

Secondly, the referee should be mic’d up and the conversation between the on field ref and the VAR official should be available to fans both watching on TV and those in the stadium (I’m not sure whether this would be over the tannoy or with a little headphone like they give you at the snooker)

 

Thirdly, I’d welcome any steps to speed up VAR reviews. My pet peeve is when the ref spends minutes with his hand to his ear waiting for the VAR official to send him over to the monitor, then runs he has to go and check it himself. For anything but the most obvious decisions, the ref should be going straight to the monitor.
 

I also think once the ref is at the monitor it should be time limited to 45-60 seconds. If no clear and obvious error is identified in that time then the on field decision should stand.

 

Fourthly, technology should be used to automate offside decisions like it was at the World Cup. There’s absolutely no reason for humans to be drawing lines on a screen manually in this day and age. Not only is it prone to human error, but it’s a complete waste of time. 

All of which is fair enough, I just hold a different opinion than yourself.

I think branding it unfair treatment is probably a bit much, it’s human error that has gone against you which every team experiences.

An opinion I’ve always held is football fans are at their most content when they have something to moan about. When I think back to times where a referee has made a bad decision that has impacted us, heading back to the pub afterwards with my mates and moaning about it doesn’t seem like a major hardship to me.

The fact that we still have stuff to moan about post-VAR introduction but with a lessened match day experience in the ground is one of the main reasons I want rid of it.

[AJF]

1 hour ago, 54_and_counting said:

And what part of VAR stopped you enjoying our win on sat there? It checked one goal which was given and we won a difficult game 4-2

If you say you came away from that game not enjoying it because you had to wait a bit for it to award cantwells goal then i call pish on that

It doesn’t stop me from enjoying it per se, but I had a much better time at football matches pre-VAR. It is somewhat tempered.

[Ranaldo Bairn]

7 hours ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

That would be carnage in football  especially at the two big grounds. Already in rugby we see slow motion replays and the crowd will try to influence the ref (and often seems to be successful). An innocuous looking challenge when slowed down might still not too bad but when you then get 40,000 folk oohing and aahing, booing and making it out as if it's a horror challenge the ref can be swayed. Same goes for checking the grounding - even if it looks like the player didn't score a try, fans will cheer as if to say to the ref "see, it's a try". Playing any sort of 50/50 (hell, even a 70/30) at Ibrix or Parkhead and you'll get howls of derision, chants of "off, off, off" or whatever and you know how spineless our refs are already at standing up to the atmosphere at those places. There's a reason football decided early on not to show replays of conventional incidents (and it predates VAR by a great number of years by the way).

This is perfectly correct - as we saw at EEP only a week or two ago...

[HibsFan]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

For me, the single biggest thing that reduces my enjoyment of football is a feeling that my team has been unfairly treated by the referee.

Have you considered growing up a bit?

[Kapowzer]

I had no issue with both offside calls on Saturday, the rule is if its marginal then you go with the attacking team which I'm also fine with as I'm not Italian.

The issue is the time it takes and what we all thought would be the ending of glaring oversights. To find them still happening with the benefit of what? 2 extra pairs of eyes at VAR HQ? and instant replay at the sidelines for the ref is wild stuff. Not how it was sold or even slightly envisaged.

I do think second yellows (and not because of Slattery) can be so pivotal need to come under the purview. But then what if the first was a joke and the second is a stone waller.

I would like to see players who try conning pulled up more. As always after a big tournament there's a palpable change for a bit ... remember when they used to be sensitive (rightly) to players miming cards being issued. 6 months later, back to normal.

I can't recall if I've posted this before, but look at how this Aussie ref handles a game, not a jobsworth or little Napoleon like a few of ours. He was mic'd up for his final game. Seems they had VAR a good bit before us as its 4 years old. It would take a sea change in culture to allow our refs to be mic'd up for general consumption. The yellow card he gives either the VAR ref or one of his assistants says "I think its a yellow" as he runs over, I don't know if that happens here.

 

[Alert Mongoose]

To be fair a lot of fans (myself included) often use refereeing decisions as a comfort blanket when your team is utter shite. Sometimes the only thing that wakes up the support is the sheer audacity of a referee giving a 50/50 decision against their team. 

[Donathan]

56 minutes ago, HibsFan said:

Have you considered growing up a bit?

I think when you resort to personal insults you have lost the debate