VAR in Scottish Football

[Eder]

vaR only highlights how bad Scottish referees are.

Answerable to no-one.  It would be great if the SFA asked UEFA for help to improve our referees.  Possibly an exchange scheme.

It's no just Scotland's national team that misses out on UEFA/FIFA finals, when was the last time our officials refereed at the highest level?

I don't see any evidence of the SFA doing anything to improve standards.

 

[craigkillie]

2 hours ago, CoF said:

See this bit, I dunno if that's true? Not this weekend anyway - 

Curtis Main's dive - should've went to the monitor. 

Considine's handball - should've went to the monitor. 

Youan sending off - can't go to the monitor. 

Slattery sending off - can't go to the monitor.

 

I can't really recall too many decisions this season where the ref has gone to the monitor and still made a c**t of it. If anything, there's a case for the on-field ref to use VAR more.

The on-field refs are "using VAR" when they decide not to go to the monitor. They have to trust their colleagues in the VAR room to make the decision properly, just like they trust their assistant to make the correct decisions on offside. If there is a f**k up like the Considine one, that is entirely on the guy in the room, not the referee on the pitch.

[CoF]

31 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

The on-field refs are "using VAR" when they decide not to go to the monitor. They have to trust their colleagues in the VAR room to make the decision properly, just like they trust their assistant to make the correct decisions on offside. If there is a f**k up like the Considine one, that is entirely on the guy in the room, not the referee on the pitch.

Aye, that's my point. The considine and main ones were clear and obvious errors to everyone bar the guy in the room. If the guy in the room doesn't tell the ref to take a look at the monitor, then he's not going to take a look. 

I was responding to the point that ref's are overly reliant on VAR and still making mistakes. I don't think that's the case at all. Checking the monitors doesn't happen that often, when arguably it should be happening more. But that's down to the guy in the room, not the on-field ref. 

[Dons_1988]

On 20/03/2023 at 07:26, Jacky1990 said:

I'm fairly pro VAR in concept but this is the most succinct take I've heard on why it doesnt seem to be working as well as it should in theory.

Fair play.

I would also have been pro the concept of VAR had we not had the benefit of seeing it in action for years elsewhere before it hit Scotland. 

The idea of using a simple thing like cameras to assist referees making decisions they can’t make themselves in real time seems to make sense. Almost a no brainer. 

But once you scratch the surface, get into the detail, see the impact it has on the game as a spectacle, see the expectations of an increase in accuracy rise amongst fans, managers, pundits and the actual increase not even nearly live up to that, you see it’s really not fit for purpose. 

That’s before you consider how much refereeing decisions actually influence results and ultimately the outcome of matches/league seasons etc. no way of measuring it really but I’d wager it’s pretty small. A perceived injustice like a ref decision is very, very appealing to the football fan and of course managers whose livelihood is at stake, but does that reflect reality? 

Put that altogether and you realise VAR is a half baked solution to a problem that can’t really be solved or is even that big a problem. 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

2 hours ago, Dons_1988 said:

I would also have been pro the concept of VAR had we not had the benefit of seeing it in action for years elsewhere before it hit Scotland. 

The idea of using a simple thing like cameras to assist referees making decisions they can’t make themselves in real time seems to make sense. Almost a no brainer. 

But once you scratch the surface, get into the detail, see the impact it has on the game as a spectacle, see the expectations of an increase in accuracy rise amongst fans, managers, pundits and the actual increase not even nearly live up to that, you see it’s really not fit for purpose. 

That’s before you consider how much refereeing decisions actually influence results and ultimately the outcome of matches/league seasons etc. no way of measuring it really but I’d wager it’s pretty small. A perceived injustice like a ref decision is very, very appealing to the football fan and of course managers whose livelihood is at stake, but does that reflect reality? 

Put that altogether and you realise VAR is a half baked solution to a problem that can’t really be solved or is even that big a problem. 

There's a Guardian article published today on English officiating, and VAR down south.  They have all the money in the world to throw at the problem, and almost everyone is miserable. 

The problem isn't VAR, and isn't referees, but the way that those involved in football (fans, players, coaches, pundits) are perpetually trying to square circles.  There are so few truly objective decisions in football, and yet refereeing decisions are being critically evaluated by people each week, the vast majority of whom are unable to be objective in their own analysis, have absolutely no understanding or familiarity with refereeing in any capacity, and don't know or understand the application of the Laws of the Game.

I'm not certain this problem can ever be solved until a level of acceptance is made, that not all decisions can be objectively 100% correct to 100% of people.

Officiating is a zero-sum game, and it's always bemused me that everyone around the game can be unhappy.  We seem to fixate on the individual handful of errors, and extrapolate that the entire game is broken.

Scotland doesn't have the money to pay 30 officials full-time, have 12+ cameras for VAR at every game, and even if it did - what exactly would change?  VAR would be more refined, officials would be fitter and probably slightly better, but ultimately, the same decisions that cause massive discontent would still exist.

The SFA and UEFA have a communications issue they need to address, as they're still dealing with football in a pre-social media age.  Education and communication on how refereeing and the Laws of the Game actually works is long overdue.  Getting rid of the objectively wrong moaning on Sportsound would go a long way to slowing the 'death spiral' mirage.

Edited March 21, 2023 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[DukDukGoose]

13 hours ago, craigkillie said:

The on-field refs are "using VAR" when they decide not to go to the monitor. They have to trust their colleagues in the VAR room to make the decision properly, just like they trust their assistant to make the correct decisions on offside. If there is a f**k up like the Considine one, that is entirely on the guy in the room, not the referee on the pitch.

The onfield ref couldn't have had a better view of the Considine one.

[The Master]

15 hours ago, kingjoey said:

Just seen the highlights of the Motherwell v Rangers match. I've seen scores of offside decisions which have had VAR lines drawn and have always agreed with what's shown. No idea what happened at Fir Park, but both the Motherwell first goal and Rangers third goal are clearly offside.

The lines aren’t drawn. They’re placed based on pre-match calibration. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 minutes ago, The Master said:

The lines aren’t drawn. They’re placed based on pre-match calibration. 

They look drawn on by a kid's crayon.

[SJFCtheTeamForMe]

3 minutes ago, The Master said:

The lines aren’t drawn. They’re placed based on pre-match calibration. 

I'll put money on that being significantly more accurate than people's naked eye from a tv angle that isn't in line or the magical grass lines. 

[craigkillie]

16 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

The onfield ref couldn't have had a better view of the Considine one.

I agree with that, and it was a pretty bad miss in the first place, but these things will always happen in real time, particularly when the ref has a bunch of things to look at simultaneously. Mistakes like that are inevitable and forgivable.

However, there is no excuse whatsoever for the VAR (Mike Roncone, whoever he is) not to identify the handball. He had as much time as he wanted to look at it over and over again, slow it down, view it from multiple angles, and despite spending about 2 minutes doing so, somehow decided that there was no offence. The on-field referee is not responsible for any aspect of that decision, he can only trust that the VAR is doing his part of the job properly.

[LIVIFOREVER]

18 minutes ago, Merkland Red said:

The onfield ref couldn't have had a better view of the Considine one.

 

Yeah and I foolishly thought that when VAR came in, then at least you wouldn't get calls like Montano putting the ball out for a corner with his mid riff being given as a penalty, when we played Motherwell pre VAR, but then you get ridiculously easy calls like this hand ball being missed, with VAR in place, what the f**k is the point having it!  

[The Master]

18 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

They look drawn on by a kid's crayon.

May I suggest you buy a new TV. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 minute ago, The Master said:

May I suggest you buy a new TV. 

Need to buy a new laptop too, they looks just as much an amateurish crayon job on that too.

[LIVIFOREVER]

TBH it would make some sense if we found out the VAR refs had brought their kids to work, and when they popped out for a toilet break the kids had drawn lines on the monitor with their crayons, and messed about pressing buttons making VAR decisions.

[The Master]

23 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Need to buy a new laptop too, they looks just as much an amateurish crayon job on that too.

 

[kingjoey]

5 hours ago, The Master said:

The lines aren’t drawn. They’re placed based on pre-match calibration. 

You're as pedantic as me.

[VincentGuerin]

6 hours ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

I'm not certain this problem can ever be solved until a level of acceptance is made, that not all decisions can be objectively 100% correct to 100% of people.

I don't get much right, but I was spot on with this years ago when the concept of VAR was being suggested. Loads of decisions in every football match ever played fall into the 'could have gone either way' category. How much force is enough to make something a foul? At precisely what point did the passing player release the ball so we can judge the moment we have to measure offside? How clear does a clear goalscoring opportunity have to be to be a red card instead of a yellow?

There's so much of it. And the idea that people got was that this would do away with bad errors and (what most people hear) decisions they disagree with. But we are all biased and we all apply the judgement on whether than tackle has enough force to be a red and not a yellow based, basically, on who we support. The whole enterprise was doomed from the beginning, and anyone who took the time to stop and think about how the game works and how people watch it could have told you that. Many did.

4 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

 

Yeah and I foolishly thought that when VAR came in, then at least you wouldn't get calls like Montano putting the ball out for a corner with his mid riff being given as a penalty, when we played Motherwell pre VAR, but then you get ridiculously easy calls like this hand ball being missed, with VAR in place, what the f**k is the point having it!  

If you thought that when VAR began, then fair enough.

If you thought it when VAR was introduced in Scotland after years of dreadful decisions happening on VAR's watch around the world, then you just weren't paying attention.

The insularity of Scottish football is a wonder to behold, but the number of people just ignoring the years of evidence we had from around the world that it was going to be exactly what we have seen in the last few months was laughable. Go back through this thread and this forum and you'll see plenty of people pointing it out before Scotland got VARed. It was always, always, always going to be this way, because it's like this everywhere they use VAR.

[The Master]

23 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

You're as pedantic as me.

It’s not pedantic. It’s pretty fundamental to understanding how VAR for offside works. 

[DA Baracus]

What do those who favour VAR believe is the issue and why do they believe VAR is the right 'tool' to solve it/them?

[kingjoey]

6 minutes ago, The Master said:

It’s not pedantic. It’s pretty fundamental to understanding how VAR for offside works. 

It didn't work very well at Motherwell, for both sides.