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VAR in Scottish Football


VAR in Scottish Football  

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1 hour ago, Ric said:

Do you think your club, who voted for VAR, is equally sad and infuriating?

What clubs want and what fans want does not always align, I would hope that you realise. Regardless of what Aberdeen as a club want, me as a fan wanted the VAR system nowhere near Scottish football. I am realistic enough to know that as the genie is now put of the bottle there is no going back. I now have the option to carry on supporting my club with the VAR system, which I'm going to do, or give up on the sport which has changed dramatically over the past 7 days.

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31 minutes ago, AJF said:

Saying 'certain teams' would benefit from poor officiating would be the exact same as saying only certain teams would benefit from poor officiating, surely?

Clearly not, and I'm amused you argue that they could be. If I wanted to say only, I would have written only. I didn't write only because I didn't mean only.

31 minutes ago, AJF said:

I did not state that decisions would even themselves out or that footballing karma existed. I simply said I'm willing to accept that my team may be on the end of wrong decisions if it meant that VAR was not in use. I've loved football for decades without VAR and a controversial decision adds to the entertainment in my opinion.

The "even out" comment was clearly contextual in getting bad decisions awarded against you. That's twice now you have attributed comments to me that I never made. If you want a discussion about this, fine, but keep to what was said, not what you feel you need to defend against.

Again we hit the nub of the issue, you seem to accept, put plainly, cheating, so long as it adds entertainment. That is the antithesis to my position.

31 minutes ago, AJF said:

My club's opinion on this is irrelevant when I am giving you my opinion on it. Why does my stance on VAR need to be considered a contradiction just because the club I follow supports its introduction?

Really? Come on. Your club has been very vocal, whether it's the board or even the manger coming out and claiming there is some conspiracy behind decisions made. It's clear why I asked you that question, and while it's not a cause/effect it is very relevant.

If I was to follow that logic on, it would be that you disagreed with your club at the time, as steps have been put into place to address some of the issues but you are clearly against them being employed.

31 minutes ago, AJF said:

You cannot have VAR without it being intrusive. It's simply not possible.

My point was to make it as intrusive as possible. Clearly you feel that is just impossible, or that any level of intrusion is not acceptable.

I don't agree with your viewpoint.

 

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34 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

I’m not really fussed if you think what I want from football is nostalgic or old fashioned.

Yet you seem very fussed regarding my opinion of what "I want from football".. 🤔

 

12 minutes ago, kingjoey said:

What clubs want and what fans want does not always align, I would hope that you realise. Regardless of what Aberdeen as a club want, me as a fan wanted the VAR system nowhere near Scottish football. I am realistic enough to know that as the genie is now put of the bottle there is no going back. I now have the option to carry on supporting my club with the VAR system, which I'm going to do, or give up on the sport which has changed dramatically over the past 7 days.

While I appreciate the summary, and I think it is a very honest opinion to take, I feel the "changed dramatically" is perhaps hyperbolic, but I understand the context you are saying it in.

Bear in mind, I was replying to someone insulting me, I just wished to see if that level of animus extended further.

Edited by Ric
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14 minutes ago, Ric said:

Yet you seem very fussed regarding my opinion of what "I want from football".. 🤔

Not you personally, tediously long posts aside. But I feel quite strongly that the sport I fell in love with is suffering death by 1,000 cuts, with this being a particularly big one. 

I am therefore fussed that there’s people out there that support it. As I say, if yours is the majority view then history will say I’m wrong and that’s that. 

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Do pro-VAR people enjoy watching football more now than they did prior to its introduction?
It would be a resounding no from me. I understand players, management and clubs themselves being pro-VAR as ultimately they don’t want decisions to impact their job, but f**k me, football is a sport that is supposed to entertain people and VAR is diminishing that product.
As others have said, who really cares if someone is marginally offside? Why do we need to review every single contentious decision? I’d even go to the extent of saying it’s probably a good thing that your team is on the end of a few bad decisions a season. It’s entertaining. Football fans love to moan so a shite call lets them do that and ultimately they loved the sport for all its flaws before VAR came along.

I just can’t understand the mindset behind the urge to drastically change a sport that I and millions of others loved as it was. Like the super league it’s another thing being driven by people involved in the game who don’t actually care about the sport itself. Super league is billionaire owners etc whereas this is TV and prem fanboys combined with refs and superstar managers who want a “perfect” game. And as others have said those whiny p***ks who can’t cope with losing a football game and have to find someone to blame so it doesn’t happen again.

VAR isn’t about helping the small guy, it’s about giving the big guy every possible advantage to ensure they win as expected.
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32 minutes ago, Ric said:

Clearly not, and I'm amused you argue that they could be. If I wanted to say only, I would have written only. I didn't write only because I didn't mean only.

So who do you mean then? If you didn't mean only certain teams, then do you mean all teams would benefit?

32 minutes ago, Ric said:

The "even out" comment was clearly contextual in getting bad decisions awarded against you. That's twice now you have attributed comments to me that I never made. If you want a discussion about this, fine, but keep to what was said, not what you feel you need to defend against.

Again we hit the nub of the issue, you seem to accept, put plainly, cheating, so long as it adds entertainment. That is the antithesis to my position.

What on earth are you talking about? How have I attributed comments to you that you never said? I stated that I never said that decisions even themselves out or that footballing karma existed, simply because it was irrelevant to the point I'm making. I don't know why you used those quotes when I never said them, nor was it ever implied by me, so it had no bearing on what I was saying.

Referees getting things wrong is not cheating 😂 it's human error. And human error I'd be willing to accept if it is the alternative to VAR.

32 minutes ago, Ric said:

Really? Come on. Your club has been very vocal, whether it's the board or even the manger coming out and claiming there is some conspiracy behind decisions made. It's clear why I asked you that question, and while it's not a cause/effect it is very relevant.

If I was to follow that logic on, it would be that you disagreed with your club at the time, as steps have been put into place to address some of the issues but you are clearly against them being employed.

Why is it relevant what anyone at my club wants in the context of my opinion? What I want is different so why do you think it should diminish my opinion just because they want something different? You are making no sense here. I have always maintained that I did not want VAR even when Rangers were calling for it almost 3 years ago following a match at Celtic Park.

32 minutes ago, Ric said:

My point was to make it as intrusive as possible. Clearly you feel that is just impossible, or that any level of intrusion is not acceptable.

I don't agree with your viewpoint.

It is impossible for it not to be intrusive, which is my point. There is no way that VAR can review a decision made by a referee, suggest the referee then reviews it and the decision is subsequently overturned without it being intrusive and stopping the match. Decisions cannot be changed without the match stopping and no matter how efficient it may become it will always be that way.

Edited by AJF
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13 minutes ago, AJF said:

So who do you mean then? If you didn't mean only certain teams, then do you mean all teams would benefit?

What on earth are you talking about? How have I attributed comments to you that you never said? I stated that I never said that decisions even themselves out or that footballing karma existed, simply because it was irrelevant to the point I'm making. I don't know why you used those quotes when I never said them, nor was it ever implied by me, so it had no bearing on what I was saying.

Referees getting things wrong is not cheating 😂 it's human error. And human error I'd be willing to accept if it is the alternative to VAR.

Why is it relevant what anyone at my club wants in the context of my opinion? What I want is different so why do you think it should diminish my opinion just because they want something different? You are making no sense here. I have always maintained that I did not want VAR even when Rangers were calling for it almost 3 years ago following a match at Celtic Park.

It is impossible for it not to be intrusive, which is my point. There is no way that VAR can review a decision made by a referee, suggest the referee then reviews it and the decision is subsequently overturned without it being intrusive and stopping the match. Decisions cannot be changed without the match stopping and no matter how efficient it may become it will always be that way.

There is no need for me to reply, it's just going over the same ground, and I'd repeat the same points.

Ultimately for me it comes down to whether you want a sport to be governed by rules or whether you want it to be governed by the amount of entertainment. We fundamentally disagree on this, there is no need to expand on our positions further.

 

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Just now, AJF said:

Convenient 😂

Oh, I am happy to trust me, the comments from other seem to differ though and I acquiesce.

As I say, if you are happy for cheats to cheat and get away with it so long as it offers up maximum entertainment then perhaps you should try WWE.

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5 minutes ago, Ric said:

Oh, I am happy to trust me, the comments from other seem to differ though and I acquiesce.

As I say, if you are happy for cheats to cheat and get away with it so long as it offers up maximum entertainment then perhaps you should try WWE.

Referees getting a decision wrong is not cheating. It's that simple.

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On 27/10/2022 at 11:31, VincentGuerin said:

Let's turn your question round on you. Where do you draw the line? Should we be VARing every throw-in decision? Afterall, if we don't, then we don't have a fair sport. Should we be VARing every goal-kick/corner decision? If not then where is the fairness?

 

On 27/10/2022 at 11:58, Ric said:

Sorry but that's just hyperbole. Not a single person is advocating for VAR to be monitoring for 90 minutes and interjecting at every single possible infringement, certainly not me, but your argument seems to be that if we can't be 100% certainty for every decision, then we should be a random number % certain, based on the referee's position, clarity of mind, personal judgement and any influence from the crowd.

Maybe not at the moment, but that's my prediction for the World Cup. A big nation will concede a goal from a corner that shouldn't have been given, and there will almost immediately be calls of "They have VAR, why aren't they checking for this kind of thing? It would only take a few seconds.

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2 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Now we've got it and it isn't going anywhere, I'm willing to wait and see the first 11 sets of fixtures with it in use before making my mind up though, and not pre judging it on how other Countries have done.

I don't understand this at all.

How and why do you think the implementation of VAR in Scotland will be any different to the numerous other countries that have been using it for years?

You don't need to 'wait and see' with something that we already have years of evidence for. This constant insistence that VAR is 'new' is baffling.

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12 minutes ago, Salvo Montalbano said:

 

Maybe not at the moment, but that's my prediction for the World Cup. A big nation will concede a goal from a corner that shouldn't have been given, and there will almost immediately be calls of "They have VAR, why aren't they checking for this kind of thing? It would only take a few seconds.

Whether it's a World Cup match, or a big Champions League match, or whatever. This is coming.

I remember years ago at Ibrox Hearts won a corner down in front of the away end, but the linesman got it badly wrong and gave Rangers a goal kick. Just a terrible decision. Rangers took the goal-kick and about thirty second later the ball was in the Hearts net, and we went on to lose 2-0. It was 0-0 at the time.

Something like that costing Man City or Real Madrid a Champions League final, and wait and see where we go next with VAR.

Fucking shite.

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3 hours ago, Ric said:

Yet you seem very fussed regarding my opinion of what "I want from football".. 🤔

 

While I appreciate the summary, and I think it is a very honest opinion to take, I feel the "changed dramatically" is perhaps hyperbolic, but I understand the context you are saying it in.

Bear in mind, I was replying to someone insulting me, I just wished to see if that level of animus extended further.

I feel that it has "changed dramatically" inasmuch you never know which bus or train you're going to be able to catch due to the VAR taking an age over 3 or 4 decisions. 

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1 hour ago, VincentGuerin said:

I don't understand this at all.

How and why do you think the implementation of VAR in Scotland will be any different to the numerous other countries that have been using it for years?

You don't need to 'wait and see' with something that we already have years of evidence for. This constant insistence that VAR is 'new' is baffling.

 

I'm pretty much in agreement with others that are on the side of not wanting VAR at all, with its intrusiveness and how long it takes to get VAR decisions done, and i didn't particularly want it in the first place, but it's here now and we'll have to make the best of it. No point making my mind up before i even watch games involving my team, i'll at least try to remain fair minded and see how it actually does when i'm at the games.

 

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When we played Celtic on Saturday it was a brilliant game of football to watch.  The amount of time devoted to discussing the game compared to the VAR decisions was a joke.

I know a bit of controversy is part of the game's appeal, but the nature of the debate round the game in general is too skewed by it also

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21 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Martindale.

Not sure it was contentious right enough, it was given as a yellow card foul, but VAR got it upgraded to a red, and although it split our fans on whether it was correct or not, i'm on the side of those thinking it was. 

Martindale didn't even question it though, so in that respect he was still happy to have VAR even though the first VAR big decision went against his team and prob cost us getting all 3 pts against Sevco.

There's only been one round of fixture under VAR, maybe need to wait for the first round of 11 fixtures with it in place before asking him that question.

Yeah. To be fair I don't think it was contentious. Despite my dislike for all things Rangers I think it's hard to argue that was anything other than a red card. 

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Those expecting things to bed down and VAR to improve would do well to look at other places where it's used.

The TL;DR version of this is that it doesn't improve.

Australia has been VARed up since March 2018, and it's still often a complete farce. Fans hate it, players and coaches moan about it, and there's a significant body in favour of binning it. It seems they haven't got over their 'teething problems'.

Brisbane Roar's captain has called for VAR to be binned. https://www.ftbl.com.au/news/a-league-captain-wants-var-scrapped-you-see-people-wait-to-celebrate-thats-not-what-football-is-all-about-586997

Linked article about 18 months old, but people who follow the A-League will know the situation hasn't improved at all. When they're constantly delaying the game and still get decisions like the Ibuskui red card recently, you have to question the point of it all.

https://www.sbs.com.au/sport/article/var-here-to-stay-in-the-a-league-says-orourke/n2lv2a3j1

Dale Johnson of ESPN cited a survey of players in Germany showing 63% were unhappy with VAR in its third season there. The first three seasons of use in Germany showed VAR interventions getting longer each year (it seems that trend has continued from the article below), although rule changes influenced that.

The Bundesliga has been using VAR for 5 years now, and 70% of 36,000 fans recently surveyed by Kicker magazine say football has 'lost main parts of its emotionality'.

https://english.news.cn/20220819/7d19ac730d2d45beb4603c6c33aa98d8/c.html

Serie A decided, after five seasons of referees still routinely making an arse of things over VAR, that it should have some VAR Specialist refs! Turns out VAR paired with poor referees doesn't make football wonderful, but makes it slow, boring, and still error-riddled. Can any regular Serie A watcher genuinely say it's been worth it? And how's the demise of refereeing conspiracy theories going in Italy?

https://football-italia.net/var-specialists-to-be-introduced-in-serie-a/

I'm off to Inverness now to get drunk.

 

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