VAR in Scottish Football

[Clown Job]

1 minute ago, Ranaldo Bairn said:

I haven't played FM for several years now (it just got too ridiculously overcomplicated for me), but do recent iterations have VAR included?

Can imagine that's another reason for rage-quitting.

They do

I still play it using text only mind you

[craigkillie]

2 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Manipulation?  That's a tad foil helmetty is it not?

I'd tend to agree, but then I see every weekend people complaining about how two lines aren't in parallel because they don't understand how angles work when viewed from a fixed point.  Whilst in a perfect world, we would accept the TV pictures with pixel-perfect lines, football fans, players, coaches, pundits refuse to accept it - so this is where we are.  For now.

Maybe manipulation is the wrong word, but as soon as the decision making process and the visuals stop being real, we get further and further away from the perception of authenticity. At the end of the day, any AI model still has human input in terms of how it's constructed, and there's a lot of research about how this human user's biases can influence the way the model works. So if the way the images are generated has certain perceptions about how players move or what shape people's heads or feet are, for example, then this can prove to be systematically biased against certain types of players.

In terms of the "offside is offside, even if it's 1mm" zealots, there's a slightly facetious point, separate from the automated stuff. Once you're down to the sort of margins we've seen on those images, how can you possibly account for stuff like a player having a baggy shirt which hangs away from his body, or having a pair of boots that are slightly too big and therefore his toe is not right at the tip. Bear in mind that the laws relate to the player, not his clothes, so how can you possibly establish where the player stops and the strip or boots start. And what about hair? Would dreadlocks or a ponytail potentially play someone onside or offside? Is hair a part of your body (which is the wording used by the law).

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Maybe manipulation is the wrong word, but as soon as the decision making process and the visuals stop being real, we get further and further away from the perception of authenticity. At the end of the day, any AI model still has human input in terms of how it's constructed, and there's a lot of research about how this human user's biases can influence the way the model works. So if the way the images are generated has certain perceptions about how players move or what shape people's heads or feet are, for example, then this can prove to be systematically biased against certain types of players.

In terms of the "offside is offside, even if it's 1mm" zealots, there's a slightly facetious point, separate from the automated stuff. Once you're down to the sort of margins we've seen on those images, how can you possibly account for stuff like a player having a baggy shirt which hangs away from his body, or having a pair of boots that are slightly too big and therefore his toe is not right at the tip. Bear in mind that the laws relate to the player, not his clothes, so how can you possibly establish where the player stops and the strip or boots start. And what about hair? Would dreadlocks or a ponytail potentially play someone onside or offside? Is hair a part of your body (which is the wording used by the law).

What you're emphasising is the logical extension of Law 11 - the problem is the Law and not the technology.  

Law 11 is written/intended so that an attacker 'in line' with the second last defender is onside, except with such technology no such thing can exist.  Even allowing a 5cm threshold or tolerance (as is currently in place in England) doesn't actually fundamentally change anything since all you do is move the same "1mm" point.

Many of these debates are somewhat academic, but football has to decide what it wants.  For me, VAR should have only ever be considered for correcting a "gross miscarriage of justice", where something has so very obviously gone wrong.  Yes, that doesn't get us away from edge cases as those exist in every feasible application of Law in any walk of life, but having seen Scotland be done over by gross injustice (never mind what Ireland once saw), that kind of VAR just has to exist in this age.

The temptation is to otherwise throw it out altogether, and I have some sympathy with that.  But that does mean knowingly accepting that teams will lose Leagues, Championships, World Cups etc through events we can legislate for.  And for that reason, I'm supportive enough. 

I do not like the video game elements, but I see them as a long way down the list of problems we have. Until football people decide what they want, I'll be supportive of simplifying the way the message is conveyed.

[Detournement]

The big issue with offside is that unless the camera is perfectly in line with the incident it interoduces an error as does any slope/camber on the pitch. 

Another issue with offside is that the single frame they select represents less time than it takes to kick the ball. Some players can run 30cm during the time of contact on a ball strike. How they select the frame never seems to be scrutinised. 

FIFA obviously decided they wanted a binary system despite the fact that it's literally impossible to deliver perfectly and now we are stuck with this shit. 

 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

17 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

Is hair a part of your body (which is the wording used by the law).

Used to be.

[Dons_1988]

2 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

.

The temptation is to otherwise throw it out altogether, and I have some sympathy with that.  But that does mean knowingly accepting that teams will lose Leagues, Championships, World Cups etc through events we can legislate for.  And for that reason, I'm supportive enough. 

1) Football is a sport, therefore the adult thing here is to accept that it is imperfect, as are the application of laws. Many of the laws exist predominantly to make it a viable and entertaining spectacle, not to batter folk to death with 100% accuracy

2) we’d be accepting that refereeing decisions contribute to the outcome of a game but they don’t decide it. For every bad decision there is incompetence from the losing side/brilliance from the winning side that contributed just as much, if not more than any refereeing call. 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

11 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

The temptation is to otherwise throw it out altogether, and I have some sympathy with that.  But that does mean knowingly accepting that teams will lose Leagues, Championships, World Cups etc through events we can legislate for.  And for that reason, I'm supportive enough. 

 

Teams will continue to lose leagues/cups anyway etc as VAR is financially out of reach for the vast vast majority of the sport.

 

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

Just now, Melanius Mullarkay said:

Teams will continue to lose leagues/cups anyway etc as VAR is financially out of reach for the vast vast majority of the sport.

 

Right.  But because not everyone can have good things has never been a justification that no one can...

[FozzysFence]

On 05/09/2022 at 21:38, big al said:

Is there a date when Video Assisting Rangers commences yet?

 

Or will it be Vatican-Approved Refereeing? 

[Melanius Mullarkey]

4 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Right.  But because not everyone can have good things has never been a justification that no one can...

Good things?

If they want to stick VAR into the forthcoming Euro$uperLeague fire in. Its driven by fear of clubs/owners missing out on money (not winning a trophy) and It only furthers the creation of a 2 tier sport and does nothing to enhance the entertainment factor.

Keep it away from the rest (i.e. vast majority of the sport that is doing just fine).

[The Master]

Looks like the SFA have found their way of chalking off goals against the Old Firm for "offside": make sure VAR can't see all the defenders.

 

[Dylangt7]

Another example of why VAR and the way its been operated in football is a waste of time and still relies on human interpretation, still open to error and in practice full of unconscious bias. The VAR operator rushes to select one suitable still for the on pitch ref to review, without first having conducted the most basic of checks.

VAR should either be scrapped or learn some lessons from Cricket when they conduct a review. In Cricket there is a understood process and checklist that they go through that is understood by all, conducted in the open for all on tv at least to hear the umpires and tv umpires decision process.

The first check in any offside review should refer to the actual rules and check for 2 opposing players between the goal.

They then need to be actually consistent in the criteria and the lines, one weeks its a foot arm etc...the one with Lukaka last year was a joke, measuring from Lukaku's arm to Van Dijk's torso and foot, conveniently ignoring the two arms in line...

edited to add ....I wouldn't be against American football type yard lines on the pitch to make it a more transparent process, they don't have to be as visible as they existing white lines or across the whole pitch. just something to demonstrate that the VAR line is actually straight. at the moment its open to interpretation. 

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by Dylangt7

[ArabFC]

3 hours ago, The Master said:

Looks like the SFA have found their way of chalking off goals against the Old Firm for "offside": make sure VAR can't see all the defenders.

Even without that defender, it was a stupid decision - even if were technically correct.

An injury time winner that sparked incredible celebrations ruled out even though the 'offside' player made no contact and had no effect on the goalkeeper or defenders.

Cue fights on the pitch in place of a famous win.

There's literally no point in celebrating a goal in the VAR era anymore - best wait a couple of minutes before we check it from all angles.

[craigkillie]

If you think it had no impact on the goalkeeper or defenders then it's not correct at all. I'd argue that it did affect the keeper and would have been the right decision but for the other player actually playing him on.

[DA Baracus]

22 minutes ago, Dylangt7 said:

Another example of why VAR and the way its been operated in football is a waste of time and still relies on human interpretation, still open to error and in practice full of unconscious bias. The VAR operator rushes to select one suitable still for the on pitch ref to review, without first having conducted the most basic of checks.

VAR should either be scrapped or learn some lessons from Cricket when they conduct a review. In Cricket there is a understood process and checklist that they go through that is understood by all, conducted in the open for all on tv at least to hear the umpires and tv umpires decision process.

The first check in any offside review should refer to the actual rules and check for 2 opposing players between the goal.

They then need to be actually consistent in the criteria and the lines, one weeks its a foot arm etc...the one with Lukaka last year was a joke, measuring from Lukaku's arm to Van Dijk's torso and foot, conveniently ignoring the two arms in line...

edited to add ....I wouldn't be against American football type yard lines on the pitch to make it a more transparent process, they don't have to be as visible as they existing white lines or across the whole pitch. just something to demonstrate that the VAR line is actually straight. at the moment its open to interpretation. 

 

Or, and hear me out, just don't have VAR at all (although sadly not an option).

[Clown Job]

 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Clown Job

[CoF]

I’d like to see them add something like “is the player obviously offside” (I.e to the human eye or the quick draw of a line) or “is the player gaining an obvious advantage” for these mental 1mm fingernail takes. Dunno, I’ve not thought it through but just now it’s nonsense. 

[Loonytoons]

Fucking hare VAR. Really could not celebrate that goal.

[Zamora Fan]

Fucking hare VAR. Really could not celebrate that goal.

Was convinced goals 1 and 3 were gonna be hauled back. Can’t stress enough how much I despise it, the best thing about football ruined for the sake of paranoid old firm fans, EPL mutants and to make Douglas Ross’ life easier.

[SJFCtheTeamForMe]

On 22/09/2022 at 11:40, Zamora Fan said:

Was convinced goals 1 and 3 were gonna be hauled back. Can’t stress enough how much I despise it, the best thing about football ruined for the sake of paranoid old firm fans, EPL mutants and to make Douglas Ross’ life easier.

It gives me the rage. 

Football being changed for the benefit of the fucking referees!!! They still make a pigs ear of it as well!