VAR in Scottish Football

[The Master]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

SPFL request 4th officials for Championship games on TV but not for the rest - seemingly fine.

SPFL/SFA request access to additional cameras for TV games but not for the rest - an affront to fairness

You can surely therefore see where the question comes from. What is the difference?
 

If you can’t see the difference already, there’s no point in trying to explain it to you.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

So confirming again that the claimed reduced price of VAR was actually because they have done it on the cheap.

Offside is going to be judged from 3 cameras instead of 5 used in other places.

[Dons_1988]

It’s further evidence that VAR is not a sporting decision. It’s for commercial reasons, whether that be just for us to be seen to have it and not be a backwater and to get our refs trained in it and available for European games. 

[The Master]

2 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

So confirming again that the claimed reduced price of VAR was actually because they have done it on the cheap.

Offside is going to be judged from 3 cameras instead of 5 used in other places.

Assuming the 6 cameras are: 3x half-way line (2 high, 1 low), 2x 18 yard line, and 1x high behind a goal, then marginal goal decisions will be inconsistent as well between Sky and non-Sky games (the former having fixed cameras looking down the goal lines).

Although any flavour of VAR without goal-line technology is always going to be a shitshow. 

[craigkillie]

If you can’t see the difference already, there’s no point in trying to explain it to you.

This is basically your way of saying "I've backed myself into the corner because I don't know the difference".

In one case we have a Sky TV pick in the Premiership being treated differently to a non-Sky TV pick. In the other case we have a BBC TV pick in the Championship being treated differently to a non-BBC TV pick. Both of these differences are a result of a choice made by the SPFL to have matches refereed in that manner.

In both cases, it leads to a difference in how much information is available to the referee for any given decision, but does not lead to any difference in the actual laws of the game or how they are being applied. Offside is still offside, handball is still handball and so on, you've just got a slightly improved chance of getting it right.

If it was up to me I wouldn't have VAR at all, but given that is off the table, we might as well use all the possible information available for any given game. Even if we had the same number of cameras, no doubt there would be slight differences from ground to ground in where they are located in terms of height, or even just in terms of pitch size effects.

[The Master]

5 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

This is basically your way of saying "I've backed myself into the corner because I don't know the difference".

If that’s what you want to think, rock on.

Everyone else can see the ridiculousness in comparing the presence of a 4th official, to multiple additional camera angles that can be replayed multiple times and in slow motion. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by The Master

[Dons_1988]

13 minutes ago, craigkillie said:

This is basically your way of saying "I've backed myself into the corner because I don't know the difference".

In one case we have a Sky TV pick in the Premiership being treated differently to a non-Sky TV pick. In the other case we have a BBC TV pick in the Championship being treated differently to a non-BBC TV pick. Both of these differences are a result of a choice made by the SPFL to have matches refereed in that manner.

In both cases, it leads to a difference in how much information is available to the referee for any given decision, but does not lead to any difference in the actual laws of the game or how they are being applied. Offside is still offside, handball is still handball and so on, you've just got a slightly improved chance of getting it right.

If it was up to me I wouldn't have VAR at all, but given that is off the table, we might as well use all the possible information available for any given game. Even if we had the same number of cameras, no doubt there would be slight differences from ground to ground in where they are located in terms of height, or even just in terms of pitch size effects.

VAR is a pretty fundamental change to the ways laws are applied. The rules haven’t changed, no, but the results are going to be very different from the naked eye to VAR. 

Consistency is absolutely fundamental to fairness in any competition. You can accept that human error makes that nearly impossible but investing in technology that actively creates inconsistency is pretty appalling imo. 

Edited June 19, 2022 by Dons_1988

[Busta Nut]

I am not sure why folk are pretending more camera angles for some games isn't an issue.

Edited June 19, 2022 by Busta Nut

[LiviLion]

The same two teams getting extra cameras every second week is a problem, surely no one genuinely believes otherwise?

You can frame it as they are under more scrutiny than the rest of the teams in the league.

Alternatively, and probably more truthfully, it's more angles for them to find one to give the bigot boys their decisions.

[kingjoey]

The genie is out of the bottle, so no going back on VAR now. The club’s wanted it so they/we have to live with what Scottish Football can afford. People can clamour for more cameras at all games, but given the financial constraints that’s not happening. People can clamour for only 6 cameras to be used at games covered by Sky, but that’s not a realistic argument and that is never going to happen either. We have to live with this shit. One thing that I’m detecting from some of these recent posts is that every match is going to be refereed by the VAR, but the reality will be that the majority of matches will be played with little or no reference to the guy in Glasgow, or wherever he and his helpers are in situe.

[Ray Patterson]

Pretty sure this is the same in the Europa League, some of Rangers games has 28 cameras at them, where as some others only has 20. Other Europa League games may have only had 16, so surely it's about giving the referee/officials the most amount of information possible.

I really don't see the issue with that, as long as there's a basic minimum standard for VAR - which there is.

Should also point out that the BBC ALBA games are supposed to have seven cameras at them next season, interesting that hasn't been mentioned in this - and all of those games will not include the OF.

 

[VincentGuerin]

On 19/06/2022 at 17:38, craigkillie said:

In one case we have a Sky TV pick in the Premiership being treated differently to a non-Sky TV pick. In the other case we have a BBC TV pick in the Championship being treated differently to a non-BBC TV pick. Both of these differences are a result of a choice made by the SPFL to have matches refereed in that manner.

Both of these things are wrong.

Like you, I'm against VAR anyway, but if we accept that it leads to more correct decisions, then effectively building it into our league system that two teams get more correct decisions than everyone else fundamentally undermines the fairness of the competition.

Your point about different referees for different games is a facile one. This is about those running the competition deciding to apply higher standards to games involving certain teams. It's equally wrong that some FA Cup games have VAR and others don't. Or that some games have a Fourth Official and some don't.

Sport isn't just about an overall total of how much information the officials have. Sport has to be fair. Teams in the same competition should be competing under the same conditions. Bascially this is the SPFL saying that when Rangers go to St Mirren they can expect the game to be officiated better than Hearts can in the same fixture. This isn't a subjective thing like who the referee is and whether you rate them or not. They're just getting a better service. Every other week.

Defending it is bizarre.

Edited June 21, 2022 by VincentGuerin

[Dons_1988]

33 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

Both of these things are wrong.

Like you, I'm against VAR anyway, but if we accept that it leads to more correct decisions, then effectively building it into our league system that two teams get more correct decisions than everyone else fundamentally undermines the fairness of the competition.

Your point about different referees for different games is a facile one. This is about those running the competition deciding to apply higher standards to games involving certain teams. It's equally wrong that some FA Cup games have VAR and others don't. Or that some games have a Fourth Official and some don't.

Sport isn't just about an overall total of how much information the officials have. Sport has to be fair. Teams in the same competition should be competing under the same conditions. Bascially this is the SPFL saying that when Rangers go to St Mirren they can expect the game to be officiated better than Hearts can in the same fixture. This isn't a subjective thing like who the referee is and whether you rate them or not. They're just getting a better service. Every other week.

Defending it is bizarre.

You’ve articulated it better than I did but yes, that was essentially my thinking. 

[Swello]

I'm looking forward to one half of the OF insisting that they get their full compliment of Cameras for non-Sky games due to a wrong VAR decision caused by tinpot-level VAR being in operation. 

That said, given that their non-Sky games will almost always be at home, they won't need additional technology to get the big decisions right.

 

[VincentGuerin]

23 minutes ago, Swello said:

I'm looking forward to one half of the OF insisting that they get their full compliment of Cameras for non-Sky games due to a wrong VAR decision caused by tinpot-level VAR being in operation. 

That said, given that their non-Sky games will almost always be at home, they won't need additional technology to get the big decisions right.

 

'We lost the league by one point, but we only got 18 Double VAR games and They got 19 Double VAR games and they got a goal in one of their Double VAR games but we didn't get one that we should have got in a VAR game that we would have got in a Double VAR game...'

...is an absolute fucking certainty come the end of the season.

[10menwent2mow]

On 19/06/2022 at 12:57, The Master said:

I thought this was fairly common knowledge already?

On one hand you could argue that for an individual game, it’s the same “level” of VAR for both teams. However, the idea that a game could be decided because it happened to be picked by Sky doesn’t seem right.

The obvious solution is to limit VAR to the same six angles from every game, regardless of how many cameras are actually there. 

I've been banging on about this in this thread for the last 18months. Every Celtic and Rangers away game is on Sky so they are going to refereed to a completely different standard to the rest of the league. Get this fucking shit show of an idea so far in the fucking sea. 

ETA - I'd suggest that most of us who don't support an ersecheek tend to think that we end up on the wrong side of more decisions when in Glasgow than we do at home. Conveniently, there won't be the same VAR scrutiny for those matches than the ones we play against them at home. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by 10menwent2mow

[The Master]

20 hours ago, Ray Patterson said:

Pretty sure this is the same in the Europa League, some of Rangers games has 28 cameras at them, where as some others only has 20. Other Europa League games may have only had 16, so surely it's about giving the referee/officials the most amount of information possible.

I really don't see the issue with that, as long as there's a basic minimum standard for VAR - which there is.

Should also point out that the BBC ALBA games are supposed to have seven cameras at them next season, interesting that hasn't been mentioned in this - and all of those games will not include the OF.

 

That’s presumably Alba having their current five, plus the 18-yard cameras. Which is sort of the same as Sportscene* keeping their current four, with the same additions. 

I’d like to think that Alba would keep 7 cameras for their occasional live games in the lower leagues, but I don’t hold out much hope.

 

*I know it’s the SPFL that produce the coverage, but you get the point. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by The Master

[Empty It]

Scottish VAR is being tailored to suit the OF, shocking revelations, never seen this coming.

[Leith Green]

On 22/06/2022 at 17:13, Empty It said:

Scottish VAR is being tailored to suit the OF, shocking revelations, never seen this coming.

They are discussing it on sportsound this pm.

If you listen to Tom English, you would imagine that only controversial decisions happen within "crucial Old Firm games".

[The Master]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/61938269

I'll go for the 23rd minute of Livingston v Rangers for the first time a referee mysteriously changes his mind to award a penalty to the visitors for an incident where his view was clearly blocked.