Seven years on

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, Kejan said:

I'm still Yes, but I've lost most of the enthusiasm for it probably due to a mix of things - Brexit, Covid, and just general weak, timid and a lot of wankers being in the SNP e.g that hawk McDonald is an absolute roaster.

I have quite a Yes heavy family and friends, and most voted for them in May, but most of it was out of the least worst option on the ballot. A few who were big independence supporters have lost their 'fight' as well, and I think if the SNP continue with more of the same ol' then these people won't vote for them or vote at all.

 

Surely, to some extent, that’s what we all vote for.

Maybe not Tories, maybe they genuinely embrace being uncaring callous b*****ds.

[git-intae-thum]

On 19/09/2021 at 12:52, BallochSonsFan said:

Neither Westminster nor Stoneybridge Town Council are doing a good job. Its entirely possible for both to do better and for people to demand that they both do better.

We don't need to wait for Westminster to improve before Holyrood does.

Where is Stoneybridge town council?

Oh

The cringing self loathing of some never fails to amaze.

 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

On 18/09/2021 at 23:23, Antlion said:

Unlike the bright future of Brexit Britain, expertly managed by Johnson and his team

On 19/09/2021 at 12:50, BallochSonsFan said:

 

If you think that the money tied up Ferguson Marine - a state owned yard that hasnt secured any further contracts and can't finish the boats they're currently building, is acceptable then wire in.

Or the Covid care homes scandal.

Or the past 2 years of exams fiascos.

Or the shambles that is the SNHS.

Or the public money wasted on pursuing cases against the Rangers administrators and spivs - action that'll cost the tax payer north of £30million.

Or the state owned airport that has about 5 flights per day that we can't find a buyer for.

Or the failure to get the Scottish welfare administration body ready to assume responsibility for Scottish benefits, to the extent where we had to ask DWP nationally to keep administering benefits for us.

Cuts to public services.

 

But aye. Toaries or some other such shite. Eventually after 14 years in charge you run out of the right to blame others for the absolute state that Scotland is in.

I think people like Antilon and Baxter etc are the problem with the independence movement. Smarmy folks incapable of accepting the faults in the likes of the SNP government, you see it on this thread too, people saying they are open to independence but accused of being tories because they dare to criticise the current regime. 
I dont think there will be a win in an indy ref held soon, sadly. Too many people incapable of separating the SNP and their lets face it horrendous governance with the movement itself. When you see people like Nicolson,  Mcdonald in Westminster, Yousaf and Swinney in cabinet in Holyrood amongst the many complete brain donors in their party its pretty clear that its all about them, their career, their profile, nepotism and very little to do with improving the country, representing constituents (Yousaf i believe stays on the other side of the country from his constituency?), its all about them. Thats hardly going to inspire us all. 
I would like to see a proper non mentalist alternative party come and offer a proper vision of an independent Scotland not beholden to the reactionary types who seem to dominate policy making currently, somewhere in the centre, or at the very least a separate realistic campaign for independence not based on a model of we’ll give you everything you want ever for free. We’ve not had decent governance at UK or Scottish level for a long time and that is worrying. It should be a shooty iny for a decent pro indy party but the SNP seem to want to snatch glorious defeat from the jaws of victory. Id like to see Scotland truly embrace a Scandinavian style of politics but no one seems capable of delivering that except a few token gestures.  

[Sortmeout]

I’ve done pretty well for myself under Tory and British rule so once again 

[Sortmeout]

PS - I reckon independence would lead to some type of civil war and also like a soft Crimea type scenario with Unionists claiming they were being mistreated in an independent Scotland and asking England to step in and protect them.

[Anonapersona]

3 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

PS - I reckon independence would lead to some type of civil war and also like a soft Crimea type scenario with Unionists claiming they were being mistreated in an independent Scotland and asking England to step in and protect them.

So unionists wouldn't accept the result?

Not surprised given your fetish for being 'under British rule'.

[sophia]

On 19/09/2021 at 17:15, sophia said:

Was it the snp / Nicola Sturgeon / Scottish Government that prosecuted the rangers "spivs"?

 

 

@BallochSonsFan you may well have missed my above question so I thought I would put it to you once again. 

Also, I'm very interested in your assertion on covid as follows:

"Or the Covid care homes scandal"

In what way did decisions taken in Scotland significantly diverge from those from Westminster?

[welshbairn]

19 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

PS - I reckon independence would lead to some type of civil war and also like a soft Crimea type scenario with Unionists claiming they were being mistreated in an independent Scotland and asking England to step in and protect them.

What, with English soldiers dressed as Chelsea fans?

Edited September 21, 2021 by welshbairn

[Sortmeout]

20 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

So unionists wouldn't accept the result?

Not surprised given your fetish for being 'under British rule'.

Not saying they wouldn’t accept it but longer term it would cause lots of issues so let’s just stay with what we’ve got. Its costing a lot of money to fuel my X5 at the moment but other than that everything seems to be going ok.

[Antlion]

3 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think people like Antilon and Baxter etc are the problem with the independence movement. Smarmy folks incapable of accepting the faults in the likes of the SNP government, you see it on this thread too, people saying they are open to independence but accused of being tories because they dare to criticise the current regime. 

 

Evidence of this? I don’t think I’ve ever said the SNP are any more than a least-bad means to an end. The idea, by the way, that posters on a pretty obscure forum are “the problem with the independence movement” is laughable. If there’s a problem with the independence movement, it’s that it isn’t making a consistent case yet and is fraught with pathetic infighting (Salmond, anti-Sturgeon loons, poseurs keen to show that they’re more critical of the Scottish gov and therefore more open-minded than anyone else, fights about issues extraneous to independence). It seems at the moment that independence supporters would rather blame other independence supporters for a lack of movement, and infighting is what would lose a future referendum and let the BritNats romp home with their (ridiculous, given Brexit and a general tendency to promote discord and separation) pretence of “unity”. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Antlion

[invergowrie arab]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

I think people like Antilon and Baxter etc are the problem with the independence movement. Smarmy folks incapable of accepting the faults in the likes of the SNP government, you see it on this thread too, people saying they are open to independence but accused of being tories because they dare to criticise the current regime. 
I dont think there will be a win in an indy ref held soon, sadly. Too many people incapable of separating the SNP and their lets face it horrendous governance with the movement itself. When you see people like Nicolson,  Mcdonald in Westminster, Yousaf and Swinney in cabinet in Holyrood amongst the many complete brain donors in their party its pretty clear that its all about them, their career, their profile, nepotism and very little to do with improving the country, representing constituents (Yousaf i believe stays on the other side of the country from his constituency?), its all about them. Thats hardly going to inspire us all. 
I would like to see a proper non mentalist alternative party come and offer a proper vision of an independent Scotland not beholden to the reactionary types who seem to dominate policy making currently, somewhere in the centre, or at the very least a separate realistic campaign for independence not based on a model of we’ll give you everything you want ever for free. We’ve not had decent governance at UK or Scottish level for a long time and that is worrying. It should be a shooty iny for a decent pro indy party but the SNP seem to want to snatch glorious defeat from the jaws of victory. Id like to see Scotland truly embrace a Scandinavian style of politics but no one seems capable of delivering that except a few token gestures.  

What's a Scandinavian style of politics?

[Anonapersona]

19 minutes ago, Sortmeout said:

Not saying they wouldn’t accept it but longer term it would cause lots of issues so let’s just stay with what we’ve got. Its costing a lot of money to fuel my X5 at the moment but other than that everything seems to be going ok.

If it's going great for you then it's going great for everyone*

* Tory code

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

31 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Evidence of this? I don’t think I’ve ever said the SNP are any more than a least-bad means to an end. The idea, by the way, that posters on a pretty obscure forum are “the problem with the independence movement” is laughable. If there’s a problem with the independence movement, it’s that it isn’t making a consistent case yet and is fraught with pathetic infighting (Salmond, anti-Sturgeon loons, poseurs keen to show that they’re more critical of the Scottish gov and therefore more open-minded than anyone else, fights about issues extraneous to independence). It seems at the moment that independence supporters would rather blame other independence supporters for a lack of movement, and infighting it what would lose a future referendum and let the BritNats romp home with their (ridiculous) pretence of “unity”. 

Just look at the way you dismissed BSF’s pretty decent points with the archetypical ‘Youre a tory’ stuff that’s just guff. Its not the ‘poster on an obscure forum’ its a general sneeryness across the SNP and its acolytes across all manner of media. You even phrase it the way with the ‘Salmond, anti sturgeon loons’ bit above too. Anyone who isnt looking at the SNP’s record and being critical of Sturgeon isnt a ‘poseur’ they’re actually looking at the track record of a government which is failing its citizens. 

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

36 minutes ago, invergowrie arab said:

What's a Scandinavian style of politics?

‘The Nordic Model’ its quite well covered. Scotland doesnt come close to it. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by Inanimate Carbon Rod

[invergowrie arab]

5 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

‘The Nordic Model’ its quite well covered. Scotland doesnt come close to it. 

All ears as to how we adopt the Nordic model under the current devolution settlement.

[Genuine Hibs Fan]

11 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Just look at the way you dismissed BSF’s pretty decent points with the archetypical ‘Youre a tory’ stuff that’s just guff. Its not the ‘poster on an obscure forum’ its a general sneeryness across the SNP and its acolytes across all manner of media. You even phrase it the way with the ‘Salmond, anti sturgeon loons’ bit above too. Anyone who isnt looking at the SNP’s record and being critical of Sturgeon isnt a ‘poseur’ they’re actually looking at the track record of a government which is failing its citizens. 

To play devil's advocate (because I broadly agree with you), Baxter actually posted decent rebuttals of pretty much all BSF's points to which he just got a "yeah but no" response and a lot of the criticisms you posted seemed to boil down to (again, justified imo) personal dislike for some of the politicians so we're not exactly dealing with great arguments on either side are we. And that's before we discuss the shite state of affairs of the alternatives. 

[Sortmeout]

49 minutes ago, Anonapersona said:

If it's going great for you then it's going great for everyone*

* Tory code

Why would I worry about how it’s going for anyone else?

[Antlion]

20 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Just look at the way you dismissed BSF’s pretty decent points with the archetypical ‘Youre a tory’ stuff that’s just guff. Its not the ‘poster on an obscure forum’ its a general sneeryness across the SNP and its acolytes across all manner of media. You even phrase it the way with the ‘Salmond, anti sturgeon loons’ bit above too. Anyone who isnt looking at the SNP’s record and being critical of Sturgeon isnt a ‘poseur’ they’re actually looking at the track record of a government which is failing its citizens. 

BSF’s points were unevidenced soundbites: “get on with the day job”, etc., straight off Tory party campaign material. He has since been even more overt on his position, rubbishing responses without any sort of evidence and regurgitating variations on “no, that’s garbage - the SNP is bad because I say so”. By all means, defer to that kind of lazy SNP Bad = independence bad if you want, but don’t assume it wins you any credit. The current SNP might well be totally uninspiring (at best), but signalling how much more critical and free-thinking you are doesn’t really do much other than help the independence movement circle the drain. There is a general sense, I reckon, that what was once a positive movement is rapidly descending into a “holier than thou” hierarchy of infighters, which is probably enormously helpful to those who equate the SNP with independence.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

6 minutes ago, Genuine Hibs Fan said:

To play devil's advocate (because I broadly agree with you), Baxter actually posted decent rebuttals of pretty much all BSF's points to which he just got a "yeah but no" response and a lot of the criticisms you posted seemed to boil down to (again, justified imo) personal dislike for some of the politicians so we're not exactly dealing with great arguments on either side are we. And that's before we discuss the shite state of affairs of the alternatives. 

Baxter can be a bit draining, ive stopped responding to him ages ago, prove him wrong on something and it just becomes a big pile of abuse etc, whats the point? Aye and no in terms of the rebuttals, the point about the Rangers case, ive no idea what happened there but I definitely am aware of politicians sticking their oar into things at various levels and from various parties in terms of the criminal justice mechanisms. 
In terms of ‘personal dislike’ no, its not that, I know a few folks who know Humza and i’ve been told hes a decent enough guy, I just dont think hes in anyway competent and his track record in governance has been appalling. Swinney, again a couple mates in the SNP have said hes nice enough, but my anger relates to his performance and that alone, im angry especially for the folks who’ve been failed by the exams mess etc. In terms of macdonald, no all ive heard is that he’s a complete idiot. 

[Dan Steele]

4 hours ago, Granny Danger said:

Maybe not Tories, maybe they genuinely embrace being uncaring callous b*****ds.